Discussion:
Local hipster dies horrible, ironic death (bizarre writeup)
(too old to reply)
Steve Hayes
2009-09-16 01:47:08 UTC
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[Default] On Tue, 15 Sep 2009 13:26:54 +0200, Steve Hayes
Which begs the question.
Hipsters were the predecessors of hippies.
As someone who was living in California during the transition from
"Beatnik" to "Hippy"I thought it was the Beatniks who were the
predecessors of Hippies ... with some influence and cross-over from
the West Coast surfing and skateboarding cultures.
Though I never went anywhere near California at that or any other time, I
nevertheless was interested in the topic.

It is a topic that has been touched on tangentially in aue many times,
particularly in relation to Richard Fontana's theories about the metamorphosis
of "cool".

As I understand it, a "hipster" was orginally a jazz fan, and especially a fan
of "cool" jazz, a "hip" or "hep" cat.

In Beat Generation circles it was extended to mean someone who was hip to the
lies of mainstream culture, and who disaffiliated from it and rejected its
values, who did not get over excited over the things pimped by the advertising
industry and so on, who was detached from all the frenzy about brands and
fashion and so on (that was the essence of "cool" in those days).

As Lawrence Lipton put it in his book "The holy barbarians" (Lipton 1959:150).

"The New Poverty is the disaffiliate's answer to the New
Prosperity. It is important to make a living. It is even more
important to make a life. Poverty. The very word is taboo in a
society where success is equated with virtue and poverty is a
sin. Yet it has an honourable ancestry. St. Francis of Assisi
revered poverty as his bride, with holy fervor and pious
rapture. The poverty of the disaffiliate is not to be confused
with the poverty of indigence, intemperance, improvidence or
failure. It is simply that the goods and services he has to
offer are not valued at a high price in our society. As one
beat generation writer said to the square who offered him an
advertising job: 'I'll scrub your floors and carry out your
slops to make a living, but I will not lie for you, pimp for
you, stool for you or rat for you.' It is not the poverty of
the ill-tempered and embittered, those who wooed the bitch
goddess Success with panting breath and came away rebuffed. It
is an independent, voluntary poverty."

So the hipster, or the beat, had a cool and detached attitude to the frenzy of
the striving for success in mainstream society.

"Beatniks" were groupies or wannabes. The word was coined by a journalist by
analogy with "sputnik" -- beatniks were those who were in orbit around the
beat movement, but were not central to it.

By the late sixties "hipster" had got shortened to "hippie", and while the
hippies were successors to the beats as a countercultural movement, they were
a little less cool. To be "cool" suggested being detached, laid back, not
excited by the constant changes of fashion and the striving for success. It
was the role of a passive and cynical observer.

Hippies were more active, and more positive in trying not merely to
disaffiliate from mainstream culture, but to try to create an alternative to
it, an alternative culture and an alternative society.

But the impression I got from the article that started this threat is that the
writer was using "hipster" in an entirely different sense, to mean something
almost opposite from what it meant in the 1950s and 1950s.

I wondered how widespread that usage is -- can other people explain the
writer's usage, and do they share that understanding of the word today, and
how did it get to mean almost the opposite of what it meant 50 years ago?

Would RF say that this too is down to "the Fonz"?

I watch "Top Gear" on TV, and there they discuss what constitutes a "cool"
car, and it is clear that their idea of "cool" is very different from mine. My
1961 Peugeot station wagon, with rusty door panels and empty cold-drink cans
rolling around on the floor, bought cheap from an open air used car lot where
a rickety wooden shack was the "office", bought on the "zero maintenance"
plan, was my idea of a "cool" car, but I doubt very much if the "Top Gear"
people are using "cool" in that sense.

The guy whose death was described in the article in question sounded anything
but "hip" to me, the very opposite of "hip", in fact. So I still wonder what
the writer meant by "hipster", and whether other people understand "hipster"
in the same way, and can explain what they mean by it.
--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk
BobF
2009-09-16 03:36:11 UTC
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[Default] On Wed, 16 Sep 2009 03:47:08 +0200, Steve Hayes
Post by Steve Hayes
[Default] On Tue, 15 Sep 2009 13:26:54 +0200, Steve Hayes
Which begs the question.
Hipsters were the predecessors of hippies.
As someone who was living in California during the transition from
"Beatnik" to "Hippy"I thought it was the Beatniks who were the
predecessors of Hippies ... with some influence and cross-over from
the West Coast surfing and skateboarding cultures.
Though I never went anywhere near California at that or any other time, I
nevertheless was interested in the topic.
It is a topic that has been touched on tangentially in aue many times,
particularly in relation to Richard Fontana's theories about the metamorphosis
of "cool".
As I understand it, a "hipster" was orginally a jazz fan, and especially a fan
of "cool" jazz, a "hip" or "hep" cat.
That was how it was used in the late-fifties when my fake ID got me
into places like The Lighthouse in Hermosa Beach - to listen to jazz
and smoke joints out the back with the hip musos. But the Beat places
were still around and buzzing up until the early-sixties (eg:
Positanos in Malibu, the Insomniac in HB, Pandora's Box on Sunset, and
various places in Venice, CA whose names got lost in the fog).

In fact, I should have used the term "Beats" instead of "Beatniks" in
my original reply.
Post by Steve Hayes
In Beat Generation circles it was extended to mean someone who was hip to the
lies of mainstream culture, and who disaffiliated from it and rejected its
values, who did not get over excited over the things pimped by the advertising
industry and so on, who was detached from all the frenzy about brands and
fashion and so on (that was the essence of "cool" in those days).
Actually, it was cool to be hip, but not hip to be cool.
Post by Steve Hayes
As Lawrence Lipton put it in his book "The holy barbarians" (Lipton 1959:150).
"The New Poverty is the disaffiliate's answer to the New
Prosperity. It is important to make a living. It is even more
important to make a life. Poverty. The very word is taboo in a
society where success is equated with virtue and poverty is a
sin. Yet it has an honourable ancestry. St. Francis of Assisi
revered poverty as his bride, with holy fervor and pious
rapture. The poverty of the disaffiliate is not to be confused
with the poverty of indigence, intemperance, improvidence or
failure. It is simply that the goods and services he has to
offer are not valued at a high price in our society. As one
beat generation writer said to the square who offered him an
advertising job: 'I'll scrub your floors and carry out your
slops to make a living, but I will not lie for you, pimp for
you, stool for you or rat for you.' It is not the poverty of
the ill-tempered and embittered, those who wooed the bitch
goddess Success with panting breath and came away rebuffed. It
is an independent, voluntary poverty."
So the hipster, or the beat, had a cool and detached attitude to the frenzy of
the striving for success in mainstream society.
Sounds reasonable ... especially to a teenager in the fifties.
Post by Steve Hayes
"Beatniks" were groupies or wannabes. The word was coined by a journalist by
analogy with "sputnik" -- beatniks were those who were in orbit around the
beat movement, but were not central to it.
No more so than the hippies who weren't hip or the "surfers" who
didn't surf. There were always those who were actually part of what
was happening and making it happen, and those who just like to be seen
with them..
Post by Steve Hayes
By the late sixties "hipster" had got shortened to "hippie", and while the
hippies were successors to the beats as a countercultural movement, they were
a little less cool. To be "cool" suggested being detached, laid back, not
excited by the constant changes of fashion and the striving for success. It
was the role of a passive and cynical observer.
Hippies were more active, and more positive in trying not merely to
disaffiliate from mainstream culture, but to try to create an alternative to
it, an alternative culture and an alternative society.
And for a while some of them succeeded.
Post by Steve Hayes
But the impression I got from the article that started this threat is that the
writer was using "hipster" in an entirely different sense, to mean something
almost opposite from what it meant in the 1950s and 1950s.
Since it was a total spoof it's hard to say.
Post by Steve Hayes
I wondered how widespread that usage is -- can other people explain the
writer's usage, and do they share that understanding of the word today, and
how did it get to mean almost the opposite of what it meant 50 years ago?
Would RF say that this too is down to "the Fonz"?
"The Fonz" was also a spoof and years out of date. But so was "Happy
Days" and the film it was based on, IMO.
Post by Steve Hayes
I watch "Top Gear" on TV, and there they discuss what constitutes a "cool"
car, and it is clear that their idea of "cool" is very different from mine. My
1961 Peugeot station wagon, with rusty door panels and empty cold-drink cans
rolling around on the floor, bought cheap from an open air used car lot where
a rickety wooden shack was the "office", bought on the "zero maintenance"
plan, was my idea of a "cool" car, but I doubt very much if the "Top Gear"
people are using "cool" in that sense.
IMO terms like cool have become so watered down and over used since
they first came into use that they are rarely used with the same
intended meaning they originally had.
Post by Steve Hayes
The guy whose death was described in the article in question sounded anything
but "hip" to me, the very opposite of "hip", in fact. So I still wonder what
the writer meant by "hipster", and whether other people understand "hipster"
in the same way, and can explain what they mean by it.
You do know that the guy whose death was described probably never
existed - or just someone the writer knows? The article was a spoof.

--

"I have plenty of friends on Facebook." - From "The Sayings of Roy"
Frank ess
2009-09-16 04:19:42 UTC
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Post by BobF
[Default] On Wed, 16 Sep 2009 03:47:08 +0200, Steve Hayes
Post by Steve Hayes
[Default] On Tue, 15 Sep 2009 13:26:54 +0200, Steve Hayes
Which begs the question.
Hipsters were the predecessors of hippies.
As someone who was living in California during the transition from
"Beatnik" to "Hippy"I thought it was the Beatniks who were the
predecessors of Hippies ... with some influence and cross-over
from the West Coast surfing and skateboarding cultures.
Though I never went anywhere near California at that or any other
time, I nevertheless was interested in the topic.
It is a topic that has been touched on tangentially in aue many
times, particularly in relation to Richard Fontana's theories
about the metamorphosis of "cool".
As I understand it, a "hipster" was orginally a jazz fan, and
especially a fan of "cool" jazz, a "hip" or "hep" cat.
That was how it was used in the late-fifties when my fake ID got me
into places like The Lighthouse in Hermosa Beach - to listen to jazz
and smoke joints out the back with the hip musos. But the Beat
Positanos in Malibu, the Insomniac in HB, Pandora's Box on Sunset,
and various places in Venice, CA whose names got lost in the fog).
In fact, I should have used the term "Beats" instead of "Beatniks"
in my original reply.
I was a bit "beat" in the middle fifties, pretty much ignorant of the
fact. I didn't have a fake ID, but spent a lot of happy hours on the
back bench by the rear entrance of the Lighthouse, sipping 7-up and
chatting with June Christy (June Christy!), while her husband (Bob
Cooper!) was playing. Close to that painting of an eighth note
suspended over a placid waterscape (titled, "How Can I Understand What
You Mean If You Don't Say What I Know?").

I don't remember the Insomniac as well, but have the impression
everyone there was too cool to fight over things that ordinarily would
have resulted in scraps of one kind or another. Also don't remember
the name of the place in Belmont Shore where Shorty Rogers and the
Condolis played.

Wasn't it around then Steve Allen produced those "Fairy Tales for Hip
Kids", spoken by Al "Jazzbo" Collins. I wonder if that means "hip" was
passé by then?

"Flip-flops" were "go-aheads", long pants and long-sleeve shirts and
sleep were unknown. Happy, foggy days.
--
Frank ess
BobF
2009-09-16 04:49:32 UTC
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[Default] On Tue, 15 Sep 2009 21:19:42 -0700, "Frank ess"
Post by Frank ess
"Flip-flops" were "go-aheads", long pants and long-sleeve shirts and
sleep were unknown. Happy, foggy days.
The Insomniac was a bit further up Pier Ave and across from street
from The Lighthouse. The music was eclectic - steel band to koto &
flute - and you didn't have to be 21 to get in.

Speaking of go-aheads & flip-flops:

http://www.surfwriter.net/flipflops.htm

I still wear them when I'm not barefoot. Like they say, you can never
be too comfortable ... but my feet are a pedicurist's worse nightmare.
--
"It's not that I'm afraid to die. I just don't want to be there when it happens." - Woody Allen

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Wax-up and drop-in of Surfing's Golden Years: <http://www.surfwriter.net>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Frank ess
2009-09-16 05:53:29 UTC
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Post by BobF
[Default] On Tue, 15 Sep 2009 21:19:42 -0700, "Frank ess"
Post by Frank ess
"Flip-flops" were "go-aheads", long pants and long-sleeve shirts
and sleep were unknown. Happy, foggy days.
The Insomniac was a bit further up Pier Ave and across from street
from The Lighthouse. The music was eclectic - steel band to koto &
flute - and you didn't have to be 21 to get in.
http://www.surfwriter.net/flipflops.htm
I still wear them when I'm not barefoot. Like they say, you can
never be too comfortable ... but my feet are a pedicurist's worse
nightmare.
Nice zoris article; my girlfriend wore the suitable tabis, sock-like
with a notch for the thong.

Now I place the insomniac. Took a girl there on a blind date in 1960,
heard (and saw) Chaino, a black man from Africa by way of Compton, who
wailed on a selection of drums. I believe I had that place confused
with another, farther north on PCH, that featured Dixieland. Had a
"Loading Zone" sign up high on the facade.
--
Frank ess
Steve Hayes
2009-09-16 06:37:59 UTC
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Post by BobF
[Default] On Tue, 15 Sep 2009 21:19:42 -0700, "Frank ess"
Post by Frank ess
"Flip-flops" were "go-aheads", long pants and long-sleeve shirts and
sleep were unknown. Happy, foggy days.
The Insomniac was a bit further up Pier Ave and across from street
from The Lighthouse. The music was eclectic - steel band to koto &
flute - and you didn't have to be 21 to get in.
http://www.surfwriter.net/flipflops.htm
I still wear them when I'm not barefoot. Like they say, you can never
be too comfortable ... but my feet are a pedicurist's worse nightmare.
Me too.

We also call them flip-flops, or sometimes slip-slops.
--
Steve Hayes
Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/litmain.htm
http://www.goodreads.com/hayesstw
http://www.bookcrossing.com/mybookshelf/Methodius
Skitt
2009-09-16 17:33:21 UTC
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Post by Frank ess
I was a bit "beat" in the middle fifties, pretty much ignorant of the
fact. I didn't have a fake ID, but spent a lot of happy hours on the
back bench by the rear entrance of the Lighthouse, sipping 7-up and
chatting with June Christy (June Christy!), while her husband (Bob
Cooper!) was playing. Close to that painting of an eighth note
suspended over a placid waterscape (titled, "How Can I Understand What
You Mean If You Don't Say What I Know?").
I don't remember the Insomniac as well, but have the impression
everyone there was too cool to fight over things that ordinarily would
have resulted in scraps of one kind or another. Also don't remember
the name of the place in Belmont Shore where Shorty Rogers and the
Condolis played.
Wasn't it around then Steve Allen produced those "Fairy Tales for Hip
Kids", spoken by Al "Jazzbo" Collins. I wonder if that means "hip" was
passé by then?
"Flip-flops" were "go-aheads", long pants and long-sleeve shirts and
sleep were unknown. Happy, foggy days.
Oh, man! Those were the days. June Christy, you say. I caught her with
Stan Kenton in a concert in San Francisco. Fabulous. I also got some free
tickets to Jazz a la Carte (another concert) for setting up an hour of jazz
for radio station KLOK (Custer's Caravan) while the regular host (Custer)
was on vacation. Then I enlisted in the Army (March of 1956), and pretty
soon caught Dave Brubeck twice -- once at the Soldiers' Club of Fort Ord,
then again at Birdland, where he bumped into me during the intermission and
spilled a bit of my drink.
--
Skitt (AmE)
Frank ess
2009-09-16 19:49:29 UTC
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Post by Skitt
Post by Frank ess
I was a bit "beat" in the middle fifties, pretty much ignorant of
the fact. I didn't have a fake ID, but spent a lot of happy hours
on the back bench by the rear entrance of the Lighthouse, sipping
7-up and chatting with June Christy (June Christy!), while her
husband (Bob Cooper!) was playing. Close to that painting of an
eighth note suspended over a placid waterscape (titled, "How Can I
Understand What You Mean If You Don't Say What I Know?").
I don't remember the Insomniac as well, but have the impression
everyone there was too cool to fight over things that ordinarily
would have resulted in scraps of one kind or another. Also don't
remember the name of the place in Belmont Shore where Shorty
Rogers and the Condolis played.
Wasn't it around then Steve Allen produced those "Fairy Tales for
Hip Kids", spoken by Al "Jazzbo" Collins. I wonder if that means
"hip" was passé by then?
"Flip-flops" were "go-aheads", long pants and long-sleeve shirts
and sleep were unknown. Happy, foggy days.
Oh, man! Those were the days. June Christy, you say. I caught
her with Stan Kenton in a concert in San Francisco. Fabulous. I
also got some free tickets to Jazz a la Carte (another concert) for
setting up an hour of jazz for radio station KLOK (Custer's
Caravan) while the regular host (Custer) was on vacation. Then I
enlisted in the Army (March of 1956), and pretty soon caught Dave
Brubeck twice -- once at the Soldiers' Club of Fort Ord, then again
at Birdland, where he bumped into me during the intermission and
spilled a bit of my drink.
June Christy was definitely something cool.

We weren't too far apart: I enlisted in the Air Force in June, 1956.
Next thing I knew I was in Little Ark Rockinsaw, finding a jazz scene
there, too.
http://home.roadrunner.com/~fsheff/trombone.htm
--
Frank ess
Skitt
2009-09-16 20:35:09 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by Frank ess
Post by Skitt
Post by Frank ess
I was a bit "beat" in the middle fifties, pretty much ignorant of
the fact. I didn't have a fake ID, but spent a lot of happy hours
on the back bench by the rear entrance of the Lighthouse, sipping
7-up and chatting with June Christy (June Christy!), while her
husband (Bob Cooper!) was playing. Close to that painting of an
eighth note suspended over a placid waterscape (titled, "How Can I
Understand What You Mean If You Don't Say What I Know?").
I don't remember the Insomniac as well, but have the impression
everyone there was too cool to fight over things that ordinarily
would have resulted in scraps of one kind or another. Also don't
remember the name of the place in Belmont Shore where Shorty
Rogers and the Condolis played.
Wasn't it around then Steve Allen produced those "Fairy Tales for
Hip Kids", spoken by Al "Jazzbo" Collins. I wonder if that means
"hip" was passé by then?
"Flip-flops" were "go-aheads", long pants and long-sleeve shirts
and sleep were unknown. Happy, foggy days.
Oh, man! Those were the days. June Christy, you say. I caught
her with Stan Kenton in a concert in San Francisco. Fabulous. I
also got some free tickets to Jazz a la Carte (another concert) for
setting up an hour of jazz for radio station KLOK (Custer's
Caravan) while the regular host (Custer) was on vacation. Then I
enlisted in the Army (March of 1956), and pretty soon caught Dave
Brubeck twice -- once at the Soldiers' Club of Fort Ord, then again
at Birdland, where he bumped into me during the intermission and
spilled a bit of my drink.
June Christy was definitely something cool.
I have that album. Also, The Misty Miss Christy, and Duet (Kenton playing
the piano and Christy).
Post by Frank ess
We weren't too far apart: I enlisted in the Air Force in June, 1956.
Next thing I knew I was in Little Ark Rockinsaw, finding a jazz scene
there, too.
http://home.roadrunner.com/~fsheff/trombone.htm
I got out in March of 1959. In 1960, in a neighborhood watering hole (in
Santa Clara), I met a dejected Al Jarreau. He was singing there with a
small band, and I was sitting at a bar directly in front of the band.
During the intermission, Al remarked to me that he probably will never make
it in this business. I then predicted that he would not only make it, but
he would make it big! The rest is history.
--
Skitt (AmE)
Steve Hayes
2009-09-16 06:23:21 UTC
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Post by BobF
[Default] On Wed, 16 Sep 2009 03:47:08 +0200, Steve Hayes
Post by Steve Hayes
[Default] On Tue, 15 Sep 2009 13:26:54 +0200, Steve Hayes
Which begs the question.
Hipsters were the predecessors of hippies.
As someone who was living in California during the transition from
"Beatnik" to "Hippy"I thought it was the Beatniks who were the
predecessors of Hippies ... with some influence and cross-over from
the West Coast surfing and skateboarding cultures.
Though I never went anywhere near California at that or any other time, I
nevertheless was interested in the topic.
It is a topic that has been touched on tangentially in aue many times,
particularly in relation to Richard Fontana's theories about the metamorphosis
of "cool".
As I understand it, a "hipster" was orginally a jazz fan, and especially a fan
of "cool" jazz, a "hip" or "hep" cat.
That was how it was used in the late-fifties when my fake ID got me
into places like The Lighthouse in Hermosa Beach - to listen to jazz
and smoke joints out the back with the hip musos. But the Beat places
Positanos in Malibu, the Insomniac in HB, Pandora's Box on Sunset, and
various places in Venice, CA whose names got lost in the fog).
In fact, I should have used the term "Beats" instead of "Beatniks" in
my original reply.
Thanks for the reminisciences.
Post by BobF
Post by Steve Hayes
In Beat Generation circles it was extended to mean someone who was hip to the
lies of mainstream culture, and who disaffiliated from it and rejected its
values, who did not get over excited over the things pimped by the advertising
industry and so on, who was detached from all the frenzy about brands and
fashion and so on (that was the essence of "cool" in those days).
Actually, it was cool to be hip, but not hip to be cool.
That sounds quotable.
Post by BobF
Post by Steve Hayes
"Beatniks" were groupies or wannabes. The word was coined by a journalist by
analogy with "sputnik" -- beatniks were those who were in orbit around the
beat movement, but were not central to it.
No more so than the hippies who weren't hip or the "surfers" who
didn't surf. There were always those who were actually part of what
was happening and making it happen, and those who just like to be seen
with them..
The hippie equivalent of beatniks was "plastic hippies" or "weekend hippies",
if my memory is correct.
Post by BobF
Post by Steve Hayes
By the late sixties "hipster" had got shortened to "hippie", and while the
hippies were successors to the beats as a countercultural movement, they were
a little less cool. To be "cool" suggested being detached, laid back, not
excited by the constant changes of fashion and the striving for success. It
was the role of a passive and cynical observer.
Hippies were more active, and more positive in trying not merely to
disaffiliate from mainstream culture, but to try to create an alternative to
it, an alternative culture and an alternative society.
And for a while some of them succeeded.
Post by Steve Hayes
But the impression I got from the article that started this threat is that the
writer was using "hipster" in an entirely different sense, to mean something
almost opposite from what it meant in the 1950s and 1950s.
Since it was a total spoof it's hard to say.
That's why I was asking.

I know a little about beat and hippie culture, mainly from reading, but in the
article concerned I'm not sure where the boundary between reality and satire
begins, since I'm not familiar with the culture it is describing. I had no
idea what PBR referred to, and had to ask.

I wanted to know if the kind of people the article was satirising are
regarded, or regard themselves as "hispters".

Ir was for similar reasons that I asked in aue what people outside South
Africa thought of "District 9", since at least some of the satire was specific
to South African culture.
--
Steve Hayes
Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/litmain.htm
http://www.goodreads.com/hayesstw
http://www.bookcrossing.com/mybookshelf/Methodius
BobF
2009-09-16 06:42:48 UTC
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[Default] On Wed, 16 Sep 2009 08:23:21 +0200, Steve Hayes
Post by Steve Hayes
I wanted to know if the kind of people the article was satirising are
regarded, or regard themselves as "hispters".
I don't think so ...
Post by Steve Hayes
Ir was for similar reasons that I asked in aue what people outside South
Africa thought of "District 9", since at least some of the satire was specific
to South African culture.
I'm curious ... what part of the satire was specific to SA culture?


--

A Roy joke:

"ROTFLMAO!
What if he doesn't have a preference for sheep? <g>
How about ewe (you)?"

- From "The Sayings of Roy"
BobF
2009-09-16 06:48:17 UTC
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[Default] On Wed, 16 Sep 2009 18:42:48 +1200, BobF
Post by BobF
[Default] On Wed, 16 Sep 2009 08:23:21 +0200, Steve Hayes
Post by Steve Hayes
I wanted to know if the kind of people the article was satirising are
regarded, or regard themselves as "hispters".
I don't think so ...
Post by Steve Hayes
Ir was for similar reasons that I asked in aue what people outside South
Africa thought of "District 9", since at least some of the satire was specific
to South African culture.
I'm curious ... what part of the satire was specific to SA culture?
BTW - It turns out that there IS a Facebook entry for Wayne Duchene,
but his info is secret (like alt.obituaries' resident idiot).

--

"I have plenty of friends on Facebook." - From "The Sayings of Roy"
Steve Hayes
2009-09-16 07:07:37 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by BobF
[Default] On Wed, 16 Sep 2009 08:23:21 +0200, Steve Hayes
Post by Steve Hayes
I wanted to know if the kind of people the article was satirising are
regarded, or regard themselves as "hispters".
I don't think so ...
Post by Steve Hayes
Ir was for similar reasons that I asked in aue what people outside South
Africa thought of "District 9", since at least some of the satire was specific
to South African culture.
I'm curious ... what part of the satire was specific to SA culture?
A bit off-topic for this thread, it was just an example. If anyone is
interested, I've written a review with some explanations of the
cultural background here:

http://su.pr/4WypTT
--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk
Pierre Jelenc
2009-09-16 04:46:54 UTC
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Post by Steve Hayes
But the impression I got from the article that started this threat is that the
writer was using "hipster" in an entirely different sense, to mean something
almost opposite from what it meant in the 1950s and 1950s.
It's an ironic or sarcastic usage. Of course they are not hip, they are
mindless fashion and advertising slaves, the kind of people who flock to
the trendy club of the week to drink the massively advertised bad beer of
the season while bemoaning the gentrification that's ruining the
neighborhood. Then they return to their condo in Williamsburg, Brooklyn
--or whatever the local equivalent is-- that daddy was kind enough to buy
for them.

They're "hipsters", not hipsters.

Pierre
--
Pierre Jelenc
The Gigometer www.gigometer.com
The NYC Beer Guide www.nycbeer.org
BobF
2009-09-16 04:59:06 UTC
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Post by Pierre Jelenc
Post by Steve Hayes
But the impression I got from the article that started this threat is that the
writer was using "hipster" in an entirely different sense, to mean something
almost opposite from what it meant in the 1950s and 1950s.
It's an ironic or sarcastic usage. Of course they are not hip, they are
mindless fashion and advertising slaves, the kind of people who flock to
the trendy club of the week to drink the massively advertised bad beer of
the season while bemoaning the gentrification that's ruining the
neighborhood. Then they return to their condo in Williamsburg, Brooklyn
--or whatever the local equivalent is-- that daddy was kind enough to buy
for them.
They're "hipsters", not hipsters.
I find it difficult to believe that so many people are taking this
university newspaper spoof seriously!

The first line should have been a no-brainer:

Disclaimer: No hipsters were harmed in the writing of this column.


--

"Don't try and do everything at once.
Remember - 'loyfn un kakn kan nor a ferd'
- only a horse can run and shit at the same time."

Bernard Mendelovitch, British/Yiddish actor

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Wax-up and drop-in of Surfing's Golden Years: <http://www.surfwriter.net>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Steve Hayes
2009-09-16 06:54:14 UTC
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Post by BobF
Post by Pierre Jelenc
Post by Steve Hayes
But the impression I got from the article that started this threat is that the
writer was using "hipster" in an entirely different sense, to mean something
almost opposite from what it meant in the 1950s and 1950s.
It's an ironic or sarcastic usage. Of course they are not hip, they are
mindless fashion and advertising slaves, the kind of people who flock to
the trendy club of the week to drink the massively advertised bad beer of
the season while bemoaning the gentrification that's ruining the
neighborhood. Then they return to their condo in Williamsburg, Brooklyn
--or whatever the local equivalent is-- that daddy was kind enough to buy
for them.
They're "hipsters", not hipsters.
I find it difficult to believe that so many people are taking this
university newspaper spoof seriously!
Disclaimer: No hipsters were harmed in the writing of this column.
It's more than just the university newspaper spoof.

There was the dictionary quotation that I said begged the question, because it
said that hipsters love this beer that everyone else thinks is shit.

That implies that "hipsters" is used more widely that just in that one
article.
--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk
BobF
2009-09-16 07:12:11 UTC
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[Default] On Wed, 16 Sep 2009 08:54:14 +0200, Steve Hayes
Post by Steve Hayes
Post by BobF
Post by Pierre Jelenc
Post by Steve Hayes
But the impression I got from the article that started this threat is that the
writer was using "hipster" in an entirely different sense, to mean something
almost opposite from what it meant in the 1950s and 1950s.
It's an ironic or sarcastic usage. Of course they are not hip, they are
mindless fashion and advertising slaves, the kind of people who flock to
the trendy club of the week to drink the massively advertised bad beer of
the season while bemoaning the gentrification that's ruining the
neighborhood. Then they return to their condo in Williamsburg, Brooklyn
--or whatever the local equivalent is-- that daddy was kind enough to buy
for them.
They're "hipsters", not hipsters.
I find it difficult to believe that so many people are taking this
university newspaper spoof seriously!
Disclaimer: No hipsters were harmed in the writing of this column.
It's more than just the university newspaper spoof.
There was the dictionary quotation that I said begged the question, because it
said that hipsters love this beer that everyone else thinks is shit.
That implies that "hipsters" is used more widely that just in that one
article.
Right - your question kind of got lost in the side issues. Getting
Post by Steve Hayes
Post by BobF
[quote]
PBR (4)
Pabst Blue Ribbon is a lot like the band Bright Eyes,
Hipsters love it, but everyone else thinks its liquid shit.
[endquote]
Which begs the question.
Hipsters were the predecessors of hippies.
So what's a post-hippie hipster?
A retrohippie?
Or what?
Since part of my background was involved in the commercialisation of
the "youth market" I should have some idea. But - as an increasingly
bewildered wrinkly - all I can offer is a wild guess.

How about faux-hipsters? Or un-hipsters? Or Virtual Hipsters?

Actually, what I see today is the Texter generation. They're not hip,
they're Texters ...


--

"BTW, there are many lurkers who will agree with me."

- From "The Sayings of Roy"
Steve Hayes
2009-09-16 06:00:13 UTC
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Post by Pierre Jelenc
Post by Steve Hayes
But the impression I got from the article that started this threat is that the
writer was using "hipster" in an entirely different sense, to mean something
almost opposite from what it meant in the 1950s and 1950s.
It's an ironic or sarcastic usage. Of course they are not hip, they are
mindless fashion and advertising slaves, the kind of people who flock to
the trendy club of the week to drink the massively advertised bad beer of
the season while bemoaning the gentrification that's ruining the
neighborhood. Then they return to their condo in Williamsburg, Brooklyn
--or whatever the local equivalent is-- that daddy was kind enough to buy
for them.
They're "hipsters", not hipsters.
Thanks.

That's the answer I was looking for to my usage question.

The piece may have been a spoof or a send up, but that doesn't necessarily
mean that every single word in it has a different meaning from the meaning it
has in everyday life.
--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk
BobF
2009-09-16 06:12:44 UTC
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[Default] On Wed, 16 Sep 2009 08:00:13 +0200, Steve Hayes
Post by Steve Hayes
Post by Pierre Jelenc
Post by Steve Hayes
But the impression I got from the article that started this threat is that the
writer was using "hipster" in an entirely different sense, to mean something
almost opposite from what it meant in the 1950s and 1950s.
It's an ironic or sarcastic usage. Of course they are not hip, they are
mindless fashion and advertising slaves, the kind of people who flock to
the trendy club of the week to drink the massively advertised bad beer of
the season while bemoaning the gentrification that's ruining the
neighborhood. Then they return to their condo in Williamsburg, Brooklyn
--or whatever the local equivalent is-- that daddy was kind enough to buy
for them.
They're "hipsters", not hipsters.
IOW - it's cool to be hip, but not hip to be cool.
Post by Steve Hayes
Thanks.
That's the answer I was looking for to my usage question.
The piece may have been a spoof or a send up, but that doesn't necessarily
mean that every single word in it has a different meaning from the meaning it
has in everyday life.
--

Crapulent: mix of 'crap' and 'corpulent' (fat).
So 'crapulent' means 'crapfat'. [joke]

- From "The Sayings of Roy"
Dave Moore
2009-09-16 10:41:50 UTC
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Post by Steve Hayes
[Default] On Tue, 15 Sep 2009 13:26:54 +0200, Steve Hayes
Which begs the question.
Hipsters were the predecessors of hippies.
As someone who was living in California during the transition from
"Beatnik" to "Hippy"I thought it was the Beatniks who were the
predecessors of Hippies ... with some influence and cross-over from
the West Coast surfing and skateboarding cultures.
Though I never went anywhere near California at that or any other time, I
nevertheless was interested in the topic.
It is a topic that has been touched on tangentially in aue many times,
particularly in relation to Richard Fontana's theories about the metamorphosis
of "cool".
As I understand it, a "hipster" was orginally a jazz fan, and especially a fan
of "cool" jazz, a "hip" or "hep" cat.
In Beat Generation circles it was extended to mean someone who was hip to the
lies of mainstream culture, and who disaffiliated from it and rejected its
values, who did not get over excited over the things pimped by the advertising
industry and so on, who was detached from all the frenzy about brands and
fashion and so on (that was the essence of "cool" in those days).
There are some definitive essays on the subject, including Anatole Broyard's
"A Portrait of the Hipster" (1948), and Norman Mailer's "The White Negro:
Superficial Reflections on the Hipster" (1957). Both worth reading for a
fuller understanding of "hipster" culture and development.

Also worth checking out is the work of Harry "The Hipster" Gibson, including
this footage from 1944:




Dave Moore
Peter Ceresole
2009-09-16 10:53:35 UTC
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Post by Dave Moore
Also worth checking out is the work of Harry "The Hipster" Gibson, including
http://youtu.be/yg6ZSvrIUJk
Oh heck, Dave. They should have called him the 'Quiffster'. What a
wonderful social and style document...

Nice to think that in 65 years' time our own latest things will look as
curious and as dated as that. And, I hope, as much fun.
--
Peter
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