Discussion:
Why is 'Howl' a masterpiece of poetry?
(too old to reply)
Will Dockery
2011-10-23 20:20:41 UTC
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By and large I agree with you ("no change there, then"!) but had hoped
to open this up to wider discussion. I really hoped that someone who
thinks 'Howl' is a masterpiece – for reasons other than its established
cultural status – might explain why.
This is a good idea since 'Howl' is indeed a masterpiece, and Allen
Ginsberg well known as one of the greatest of the 20th Century poets.

Maybe sending this over to the Beat Generation group, and perhaps even
the Dylan newsgroup where some of the scholars there might help
explain why Dylan himself holds the poetry of Ginsberg in such high
esteem will get a better response, which I've held off doing until
now.

--
Shark Pact Manifesto / Will Dockery & Shadowville All-Stars:

dylanetics
2011-10-24 10:25:27 UTC
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Post by Will Dockery
By and large I agree with you ("no change there, then"!) but had hoped
to open this up to wider discussion. I really hoped that someone who
thinks 'Howl' is a masterpiece – for reasons other than its established
cultural status – might explain why.
This is a good idea since 'Howl' is indeed a masterpiece, and Allen
Ginsberg well known as one of the greatest of the 20th Century poets.
Maybe sending this over to the Beat Generation group, and perhaps even
the Dylan newsgroup where some of the scholars there might help
explain why Dylan himself holds the poetry of Ginsberg in such high
esteem will get a better response, which I've held off doing until
now.
--
Shark Pact Manifesto / Will Dockery & Shadowville http://youtu.be/Ft3X3kC6nr4
FWIW, here is what Dylan's blurb on the back cover of Ginsberg's
"Collected Poems," published in
1984:

"Ginsberg is both tragic and dynamic, a lyrical genius, con man
extraordinaire and probably the single greatest influence on American
poetical voice since Whitman."
Peter J Ross
2011-10-24 21:45:18 UTC
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In alt.arts.poetry.comments on Mon, 24 Oct 2011 03:25:27 -0700 (PDT),
Post by dylanetics
Post by Will Dockery
By and large I agree with you ("no change there, then"!) but had hoped
to open this up to wider discussion. I really hoped that someone who
thinks 'Howl' is a masterpiece – for reasons other than its established
cultural status – might explain why.
This is a good idea since 'Howl' is indeed a masterpiece, and Allen
Ginsberg well known as one of the greatest of the 20th Century poets.
<...>
Post by dylanetics
FWIW, here is what Dylan's blurb on the back cover of Ginsberg's
"Collected Poems," published in
"Ginsberg is both tragic and dynamic, a lyrical genius,
This is the kind of imprecise praise that might apply to anybody.

"Rimbaud is both tragic and dynamic, a lyrical genius"

"Simonides is both tragic and dynamic, a lyrical genius"

"Bob Dylan is both tragic and dynamic, a lyrical genius"

It doesn't really mean anything, does it?
Post by dylanetics
con man extraordinaire
What do you think this means?
Post by dylanetics
and probably the single greatest influence on American
poetical voice since Whitman."
Sadly, this may well be true, but it constitutes an appeal to
"established cultural status".

What's good about Ginsberg's stuff in general, and "Howl" in
particular? To me it seems to be incoherent, cacophonous, tediously
padded and, in short, not worth reading.
--
PJR :-)
the messenjah
2011-10-24 22:02:00 UTC
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Post by Peter J Ross
In alt.arts.poetry.comments on Mon, 24 Oct 2011 03:25:27 -0700 (PDT),
Post by dylanetics
Post by Will Dockery
By and large I agree with you ("no change there, then"!) but had hoped
to open this up to wider discussion. I really hoped that someone who
thinks 'Howl' is a masterpiece – for reasons other than its established
cultural status – might explain why.
This is a good idea since 'Howl' is indeed a masterpiece, and Allen
Ginsberg well known as one of the greatest of the 20th Century poets.
<...>
Post by dylanetics
FWIW, here is what Dylan's blurb on the back cover of Ginsberg's
"Collected Poems," published in
"Ginsberg is both tragic and dynamic, a lyrical genius,
This is the kind of imprecise praise that might apply to anybody.
"Rimbaud is both tragic and dynamic, a lyrical genius"
"Simonides is both tragic and dynamic, a lyrical genius"
"Bob Dylan is both tragic and dynamic, a lyrical genius"
It doesn't really mean anything, does it?
Post by dylanetics
con man extraordinaire
What do you think this means?
Post by dylanetics
and probably the single greatest influence on American
poetical voice since Whitman."
Sadly, this may well be true, but it constitutes an appeal to
"established cultural status".
What's good about Ginsberg's stuff in general, and "Howl" in
particular? To me it seems to be incoherent, cacophonous, tediously
padded and, in short, not worth reading.
You're a fuckhead, Ross.
Post by Peter J Ross
--
PJR :-)
Peter J Ross
2011-10-24 22:45:42 UTC
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In alt.arts.poetry.comments on Mon, 24 Oct 2011 15:02:00 -0700 (PDT),
Post by the messenjah
Post by Peter J Ross
In alt.arts.poetry.comments on Mon, 24 Oct 2011 03:25:27 -0700 (PDT),
Post by dylanetics
Post by Will Dockery
By and large I agree with you ("no change there, then"!) but had hoped
to open this up to wider discussion. I really hoped that someone who
thinks 'Howl' is a masterpiece – for reasons other than its established
cultural status – might explain why.
This is a good idea since 'Howl' is indeed a masterpiece, and Allen
Ginsberg well known as one of the greatest of the 20th Century poets.
<...>
Post by dylanetics
FWIW, here is what Dylan's blurb on the back cover of Ginsberg's
"Collected Poems," published in
"Ginsberg is both tragic and dynamic, a lyrical genius,
This is the kind of imprecise praise that might apply to anybody.
"Rimbaud is both tragic and dynamic, a lyrical genius"
"Simonides is both tragic and dynamic, a lyrical genius"
"Bob Dylan is both tragic and dynamic, a lyrical genius"
It doesn't really mean anything, does it?
Post by dylanetics
con man extraordinaire
What do you think this means?
Post by dylanetics
and probably the single greatest influence on American
poetical voice since Whitman."
Sadly, this may well be true, but it constitutes an appeal to
"established cultural status".
What's good about Ginsberg's stuff in general, and "Howl" in
particular? To me it seems to be incoherent, cacophonous, tediously
padded and, in short, not worth reading.
You're a fuckhead, Ross.
The grown-ups are having a discussion, chuckles. Go ride your bike in
the traffic.
--
PJR :-)
the messenjah
2011-10-24 23:54:38 UTC
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Post by Peter J Ross
In alt.arts.poetry.comments on Mon, 24 Oct 2011 15:02:00 -0700 (PDT),
Post by the messenjah
Post by Peter J Ross
In alt.arts.poetry.comments on Mon, 24 Oct 2011 03:25:27 -0700 (PDT),
Post by dylanetics
Post by Will Dockery
By and large I agree with you ("no change there, then"!) but had hoped
to open this up to wider discussion. I really hoped that someone who
thinks 'Howl' is a masterpiece – for reasons other than its established
cultural status – might explain why.
This is a good idea since 'Howl' is indeed a masterpiece, and Allen
Ginsberg well known as one of the greatest of the 20th Century poets.
<...>
Post by dylanetics
FWIW, here is what Dylan's blurb on the back cover of Ginsberg's
"Collected Poems," published in
"Ginsberg is both tragic and dynamic, a lyrical genius,
This is the kind of imprecise praise that might apply to anybody.
"Rimbaud is both tragic and dynamic, a lyrical genius"
"Simonides is both tragic and dynamic, a lyrical genius"
"Bob Dylan is both tragic and dynamic, a lyrical genius"
It doesn't really mean anything, does it?
Post by dylanetics
con man extraordinaire
What do you think this means?
Post by dylanetics
and probably the single greatest influence on American
poetical voice since Whitman."
Sadly, this may well be true, but it constitutes an appeal to
"established cultural status".
What's good about Ginsberg's stuff in general, and "Howl" in
particular? To me it seems to be incoherent, cacophonous, tediously
padded and, in short, not worth reading.
You're a fuckhead, Ross.
The grown-ups are having a discussion, chuckles. Go ride your bike in
the traffic.
Ross. You're a fuckhead.
Post by Peter J Ross
--
PJR :-)
Will Dockery
2011-10-24 23:55:59 UTC
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Post by Peter J Ross
Post by dylanetics
Post by Will Dockery
By and large I agree with you ("no change there, then"!) but had hoped
to open this up to wider discussion. I really hoped that someone who
thinks 'Howl' is a masterpiece – for reasons other than its established
cultural status – might explain why.
This is a good idea since 'Howl' is indeed a masterpiece, and Allen
Ginsberg well known as one of the greatest of the 20th Century poets.
<...>
Post by dylanetics
FWIW, here is what Dylan's blurb on the back cover of Ginsberg's
"Collected Poems," published in
"Ginsberg is both tragic and dynamic, a lyrical genius,
This is the kind of imprecise praise that might apply to anybody.
"Rimbaud is both tragic and dynamic, a lyrical genius"
"Simonides is both tragic and dynamic, a lyrical genius"
"Bob Dylan is both tragic and dynamic, a lyrical genius"
It doesn't really mean anything, does it?
Post by dylanetics
con man extraordinaire
What do you think this means?
Post by dylanetics
and probably the single greatest influence on American
poetical voice since Whitman."
Sadly, this may well be true, but it constitutes an appeal to
"established cultural status".
What's good about Ginsberg's stuff in general, and "Howl" in
particular? To me it seems to be incoherent, cacophonous, tediously
padded and, in short, not worth reading.
Or it could be that your jealousy is showing because Ginsberg was
every bit the poet you'll never be, PJR?

--
Will Dockery & The Shadowville All-Stars / Oriental Jones at the 3rd
Annual WORLD AIDS DAY Benefit, December 1st at CSU Cunningham Center:
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10150434212944363&l=87908645de
Will Dockery
2011-10-25 07:54:18 UTC
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Post by Peter J Ross
Post by dylanetics
and probably the single greatest influence on American
poetical voice since Whitman."
Sadly, this may well be true, but it constitutes an appeal to
"established cultural status".
What's good about Ginsberg's stuff in general, and "Howl" in
particular? To me it seems to be incoherent, cacophonous, tediously
padded and, in short, not worth reading.
That's the way it seems to work time and around again... how can we
expect a Teabagging Republican type like PJR to "get" Ginsberg?

His work almost seems calculated to run PJR's ilk right out the room.

--
Shark Pact Manifesto / Will Dockery & Shadowville All-Stars:
http://youtu.be/Ft3X3kC6nr4
Fred Hall
2011-10-25 14:44:01 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by Will Dockery
Post by Peter J Ross
Post by dylanetics
and probably the single greatest influence on American
poetical voice since Whitman."
Sadly, this may well be true, but it constitutes an appeal to
"established cultural status".
What's good about Ginsberg's stuff in general, and "Howl" in
particular? To me it seems to be incoherent, cacophonous, tediously
padded and, in short, not worth reading.
That's the way it seems to work time and around again... how can we
expect a Teabagging Republican type like PJR to "get" Ginsberg?
Hold on there, Ace. It is never a good thing to generalize (generalise,
for the foreigners). I happen to be a tea-bagging,sandbagging,
Libertarian Republican Anarchist type, and I "get" Ginsberg. Care to
try again?
Post by Will Dockery
His work almost seems calculated to run PJR's ilk right out the room.
Oh, I see...you were trying to (f)lame PJR....heh
--
"These clowns are all Jokers!" - Rasta Khan
Hieronymous707
2011-10-25 14:47:48 UTC
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 I happen to be a tea-bagging,sandbagging,
Libertarian Republican Anarchist type,
Well there goes the neighborhood, LOL.
Fred Hall
2011-10-25 15:01:13 UTC
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Post by Hieronymous707
 I happen to be a tea-bagging,sandbagging,
Libertarian Republican Anarchist type,
Well there goes the neighborhood, LOL.
Boy howdy
--
"These clowns are all Jokers!" - Rasta Khan
Hieronymous707
2011-10-25 15:45:40 UTC
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Post by Fred Hall
Post by Hieronymous707
 I happen to be a tea-bagging,sandbagging,
Libertarian Republican Anarchist type,
Well there goes the neighborhood, LOL.
Boy howdy
--
"These clowns are all Jokers!" - Rasta Khan
Do I look Hispanic to you? I sure feel like a little Mexican right
now.
Fred Hall
2011-10-26 02:04:49 UTC
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Post by Hieronymous707
news:29f715fe-db9d-43e
0-
Post by Hieronymous707
 I happen to be a tea-bagging,sandbagging,
Libertarian Republican Anarchist type,
Well there goes the neighborhood, LOL.
Boy howdy
--
"These clowns are all Jokers!" - Rasta Khan
Do I look Hispanic to you? I sure feel like a little Mexican right
now.
No way for me to know. After all, you are completely hieronymous
--
"These clowns are all Jokers!" - Rasta Khan
Hieronymous707
2011-10-26 08:52:55 UTC
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news:29f715fe-db9d-43e
0-
Post by Hieronymous707
 I happen to be a tea-bagging,sandbagging,
Libertarian Republican Anarchist type,
Well there goes the neighborhood, LOL.
Boy howdy
--
"These clowns are all Jokers!" - Rasta Khan
Do I look Hispanic to you?  I sure feel like a little Mexican right
now.
No way for me to know.  After all, you are completely hieronymous
--
"These clowns are all Jokers!" - Rasta Khan
Hieronymous is more eponymous than synonymous with anonymous.
Steve Hayes
2011-10-27 00:32:11 UTC
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On Tue, 25 Oct 2011 08:45:40 -0700 (PDT), Hieronymous707
Post by Hieronymous707
Do I look Hispanic to you? I sure feel like a little Mexican right
now.
Are you Allen Ginsberg?

Did you write "Howl"?

If not, your appearance is off-topic, and should be discussed in another
thread, if not another newsgroup.
--
Steve Hayes
Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/litmain.htm
http://www.goodreads.com/hayesstw
http://www.bookcrossing.com/mybookshelf/Methodius
Hieronymous707
2011-10-27 00:49:04 UTC
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Post by Steve Hayes
On Tue, 25 Oct 2011 08:45:40 -0700 (PDT), Hieronymous707
Do I look Hispanic to you?  I sure feel like a little Mexican right
now.
Are you Allen Ginsberg?
Did you write "Howl"?
If not, your appearance is off-topic, and should be discussed in another
thread, if not another newsgroup.
--
Steve Hayes
Web:http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/litmain.htm
     http://www.goodreads.com/hayesstw
     http://www.bookcrossing.com/mybookshelf/Methodius
It's not Howl of course, but it is Angel's Song. Angel is my wife.


I emerge from the cocoon of winter borne onto the shore of a
small tree surrounded lake. A late evening light glows in the sky as
tree swaying wind moves delicately through branches, gently touches
my face, and the sound of water trickles itself through the threshold
of quietness. Before me she lies petaled, blossoms by her side.
I approach, and she smiles; open to me. Taste, I hear; so I taste,
then find myself at large in the immensity of a womb seeded with
stars, and once again descend into being.
Will Dockery
2011-10-25 15:47:40 UTC
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Will Dockery wrote in news:0df8cbe3-bcf5-4882-
Post by Will Dockery
Post by Peter J Ross
Post by dylanetics
and probably the single greatest influence on American
poetical voice since Whitman."
Sadly, this may well be true, but it constitutes an appeal to
"established cultural status".
What's good about Ginsberg's stuff in general, and "Howl" in
particular? To me it seems to be incoherent, cacophonous, tediously
padded and, in short, not worth reading.
That's the way it seems to work time and around again... how can we
expect a Teabagging Republican type like PJR to "get" Ginsberg?
Hold on there, Ace.  It is never a good thing to generalize (generalise,
for the foreigners).  I happen to be a tea-bagging,sandbagging,
Libertarian Republican Anarchist type,
So was Jack Kerouac, Ginsberg's best pal, and probably the person who
most "got" Ginsberg's poetry so much it is difficult to tell sometimes
who influenced whom, in that relationship.

and I "get" Ginsberg.  Care to
try again?
You might be amazed at the number of my most creative friends fit
almost your exact same self-description...
Post by Will Dockery
His work almost seems calculated to run PJR's ilk right out the room.
Oh, I see...you were trying to (f)lame PJR....heh
Well, he's really more a Brit Liberal from what I gather, so go
figure...
"These clowns are all Jokers!" - Rasta Khan
"Here I am, stuck in the middle with you." -Gerry Rafferty

--
Will Dockery & The Shadowville All-Stars / Oriental Jones at the 3rd
Annual WORLD AIDS DAY Benefit:
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10150434212944363&l=87908645de
George Dance
2011-10-26 02:21:54 UTC
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Post by Will Dockery
Will Dockery wrote in news:0df8cbe3-bcf5-4882-
Post by Will Dockery
Post by Peter J Ross
Post by dylanetics
and probably the single greatest influence on American
poetical voice since Whitman."
Sadly, this may well be true, but it constitutes an appeal to
"established cultural status".
What's good about Ginsberg's stuff in general, and "Howl" in
particular? To me it seems to be incoherent, cacophonous, tediously
padded and, in short, not worth reading.
That's the way it seems to work time and around again... how can we
expect a Teabagging Republican type like PJR to "get" Ginsberg?
Hold on there, Ace.  It is never a good thing to generalize (generalise,
for the foreigners).  I happen to be a tea-bagging,sandbagging,
Libertarian Republican Anarchist type,
So was Jack Kerouac, Ginsberg's best pal, and probably the person who
most "got" Ginsberg's poetry so much it is difficult to tell sometimes
who influenced whom, in that relationship.
and I "get" Ginsberg.  Care to
try again?
You might be amazed at the number of my most creative friends fit
almost your exact same self-description...
He was profiling me until he got to Anarchist. Oh, well; some of my
most creative friends are anarchists.
Post by Will Dockery
Post by Will Dockery
His work almost seems calculated to run PJR's ilk right out the room.
Oh, I see...you were trying to (f)lame PJR....heh
Well, he's really more a Brit Liberal from what I gather, so go
figure...
~PJ~? No way. He's far too elitist for that: he believes that "the
betters" (which naturally includes him) should run things, and
everyone else was put on earth to serve them. The politician he
reminds me of most is Oswald Mosley.

http://www.wikinfo.org/index.php/Oswald_Mosley
Post by Will Dockery
"These clowns are all Jokers!" - Rasta Khan
"Here I am, stuck in the middle with you." -Gerry Rafferty
--
Will Dockery & The Shadowville All-Stars / Oriental Jones at the 3rd
Annual WORLD AIDS DAY Benefit:http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10150434212944363&l=87908645de
Will Dockery
2011-10-25 15:53:43 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Fred Hall
Post by Will Dockery
Post by Peter J Ross
Post by dylanetics
and probably the single greatest influence on American
poetical voice since Whitman."
Sadly, this may well be true, but it constitutes an appeal to
"established cultural status".
What's good about Ginsberg's stuff in general, and "Howl" in
particular? To me it seems to be incoherent, cacophonous, tediously
padded and, in short, not worth reading.
That's the way it seems to work time and around again... how can we
expect a Teabagging Republican type like PJR to "get" Ginsberg?
Hold on there, Ace. It is never a good thing to generalize (generalise,
for the foreigners). I happen to be a tea-bagging,sandbagging,
Libertarian Republican Anarchist type,
So was Jack Kerouac, Ginsberg's best pal, and probably the person who most
"got" Ginsberg's poetry so much it is difficult to tell sometimes who
influenced whom, in that relationship.

and I "get" Ginsberg. Care to
Post by Fred Hall
try again?
You might be amazed at the number of my most creative friends fit almost
your exact same self-description...
Post by Fred Hall
Post by Will Dockery
His work almost seems calculated to run PJR's ilk right out the room.
Oh, I see...you were trying to (f)lame PJR....heh
Well, he's a Brit, so go figure...
Post by Fred Hall
"These clowns are all Jokers!" - Rasta Khan
"Here I am, stuck in the middle with you." -Gerry Rafferty
--
Will Dockery & The Shadowville All-Stars / Oriental Jones at the 3rd Annual
WORLD AIDS DAY Benefit:
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10150434212944363&l=87908645de
Dylanetics
2011-10-25 11:37:17 UTC
Permalink
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Post by Peter J Ross
In alt.arts.poetry.comments on Mon, 24 Oct 2011 03:25:27 -0700 (PDT),
Post by dylanetics
Post by Will Dockery
By and large I agree with you ("no change there, then"!) but had hoped
to open this up to wider discussion. I really hoped that someone who
thinks 'Howl' is a masterpiece – for reasons other than its established
cultural status – might explain why.
This is a good idea since 'Howl' is indeed a masterpiece, and Allen
Ginsberg well known as one of the greatest of the 20th Century poets.
<...>
Post by dylanetics
FWIW, here is what Dylan's blurb on the back cover of Ginsberg's
"Collected Poems," published in
"Ginsberg is both tragic and dynamic, a lyrical genius,
This is the kind of imprecise praise that might apply to anybody.
"Rimbaud is both tragic and dynamic, a lyrical genius"
"Simonides is both tragic and dynamic, a lyrical genius"
"Bob Dylan is both tragic and dynamic, a lyrical genius"
It doesn't really mean anything, does it?
Post by dylanetics
con man extraordinaire
What do you think this means?
Post by dylanetics
and probably the single greatest influence on American
poetical voice since Whitman."
Sadly, this may well be true, but it constitutes an appeal to
"established cultural status".
What's good about Ginsberg's stuff in general, and "Howl" in
particular? To me it seems to be incoherent, cacophonous, tediously
padded and, in short, not worth reading.
--
PJR :-)
Come to think of it, this blurb sounds more like *Ginsberg* than
Dylan. Would
Bob really use a phrase like "poetical voice"? Reeks of the lamp...

Maybe a case of Dylan telling Ginsberg, "Sure, Allen, I'll blurb your
book, whatever you want. Just write it for me."
Will Dockery
2011-10-25 11:45:57 UTC
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Post by Dylanetics
Post by dylanetics
Post by Will Dockery
By and large I agree with you ("no change there, then"!) but had hoped
to open this up to wider discussion. I really hoped that someone who
thinks 'Howl' is a masterpiece – for reasons other than its established
cultural status – might explain why.
This is a good idea since 'Howl' is indeed a masterpiece, and Allen
Ginsberg well known as one of the greatest of the 20th Century poets.
<...>
Post by dylanetics
FWIW, here is what Dylan's blurb on the back cover of Ginsberg's
"Collected Poems," published in
"Ginsberg is both tragic and dynamic, a lyrical genius,
con man extraordinaire
and probably the single greatest influence on American
poetical voice since Whitman."
Come to think of it, this blurb sounds more like *Ginsberg* than
Dylan.  Would
Bob really use a phrase like "poetical voice"?  Reeks of the lamp...
Maybe a case of Dylan telling Ginsberg, "Sure, Allen, I'll blurb your
book, whatever you want.  Just write it for me."
Very similar to the way the quote struck me earlier, which made me
think:

Actually, I remember more of Ginsberg expounding on Dylan's poetry
than the other way around, such as the liner notes to 'Desire', which
I'm not sure are still used?

Or was that 'Desire' I'm thinking of or something else?

--
Shark Pact Manifesto / Will Dockery & Shadowville All-Stars:
http://youtu.be/Ft3X3kC6nr4
M. Rick
2011-10-26 07:07:05 UTC
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Maybe a case of Dylan telling Ginsberg, "Sure, Allen, I'll blurb your book, whatever you want.  Just write it for me."
Dylan got his accountant to write it, the same guy who's been slopping
together "Dylan songs" for the last 25 years. Incalculable influence.
Brother Jumbo
2011-10-25 21:20:14 UTC
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Post by Peter J Ross
What's good about Ginsberg's stuff in general, and "Howl" in
particular? To me it seems to be incoherent, cacophonous, tediously
padded and, in short, not worth reading.
He makes sad young men and not so young men think he's expressing what
is, you know, like, inside them.

His journals and interviews are much better than his "poetry", imo.
really real
2011-10-25 22:04:47 UTC
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Post by Brother Jumbo
He makes sad young men and not so young men think he's expressing what
is, you know, like, inside them.
His journals and interviews are much better than his "poetry", imo.
Wichita Vortex Sutra - it's hard to beat that one
Will Dockery
2011-10-26 15:26:32 UTC
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Post by really real
Post by Brother Jumbo
He makes sad young men and not so young men think he's expressing what
is, you know, like, inside them.
His journals and interviews are much better than his "poetry", imo.
Wichita Vortex Sutra - it's hard to beat that one
Yeah, the 'Planet News' book has some of my favorite Ginsberg poetry,
also.

--
Music & poetry from Will Dockery:
https://will-dockery-and-friends.soundawesome.com
Brother Jumbo
2011-10-26 16:47:30 UTC
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Post by really real
Wichita Vortex Sutra - it's hard to beat that one
Why beat something that's formless?
Will Dockery
2011-11-15 23:12:25 UTC
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Ah, the old "chopped up prose, this is not a poem" canard.
Enlighten us. Explain the difference.
The canard or the poetry itself?

We've been going around and around on the poetry newsgroups about both these
subjects for over a decade, but this recent article really puts things in
some focus, for me, anyhow:

http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2011/11/need-to-create-get-a-constraint/

Poetry "...seems to be defined by its liberation from ordinary language -
poets don't have to obey the rules of syntax and punctuation. And yet, most
poetry still depends on literary forms with exacting requirements, such as
haikus, sestets and sonnets. This writing method seems to make little sense,
since it makes the creative act much more difficult. Instead of composing
free verse, poets frustrate themselves with structural constraints. Why?
A new study led by Janina Marguc at the University of Amsterdam, and
published in The Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, provides an
interesting answer. It turns out that the obstacles of form come with an
unexpected psychological perk, allowing people to think in a more
all-encompassing fashion. The introduction of the paper sets up the mystery:

Daily life is full of obstacles: A construction site blocking the usual
road to work, a colleague's background chatter interfering with one's
ability to concentrate, a newborn child hindering parents in completing
their daily routines, or a lack of resources standing in the way of
realizing an ambitious plan. How do people cognitively respond to such
obstacles? How do the ways in which they perceive and process information
from their environment change when an obstacle interferes with what they
want to accomplish? In the present research, we aim to shed light on these
questions by investigating the impact of obstacles on global versus local
processing. We propose that unless people are inclined to disengage
prematurely from ongoing activities, obstacles will prompt them to step back
and adopt a more global, Gestalt-like processing style that allows them to
look at the "big picture" and conceptually integrate seemingly unrelated
pieces of information..."

And therein lies the point of departure.

"A person is a poet if his imagination is stimulated by the dif?culties
inherent in his art and not if his
imagination is dulled by them." -Paul Valery
--
Poetry & Music from Will Dockery:
http://www.youtube.com/user/WDockery
Will Dockery
2012-01-11 23:33:23 UTC
Permalink
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Post by Hieronymous707
Post by Steve Hayes
Post by Hieronymous707
Do I look Hispanic to you? I sure feel like a little Mexican right
now.
Are you Allen Ginsberg?
Did you write "Howl"?
If not, your appearance is off-topic, and should be discussed in another
thread, if not another newsgroup.
--
Steve Hayes
Web:http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/litmain.htm
http://www.goodreads.com/hayesstw
http://www.bookcrossing.com/mybookshelf/Methodius
It's not Howl of course, but it is Angel's Song. Angel is my wife.
I emerge from the cocoon of winter borne onto the shore of a
small tree surrounded lake. A late evening light glows in the sky as
tree swaying wind moves delicately through branches, gently touches
my face, and the sound of water trickles itself through the threshold
of quietness. Before me she lies petaled, blossoms by her side.
I approach, and she smiles; open to me. Taste, I hear; so I taste,
then find myself at large in the immensity of a womb seeded with
stars, and once again descend into being.
Hey, I missed this the first time around... not Ginsberg, but it is
pretty good, in my opinion, reminds me more of the early "romantic
longing" poetry and sonnets of Allen Ginsberg (many included in the
back of the original edition of "Howl") in his youth, before he came
under the overpowering influence of folks like Jack Kerouac and
William S. Burroughs and their "let it all hang out" style of
writing.

Worth a look if you haven't already read some of this.

--
Music & poetry from Will Dockery:
http://www.reverbnation.com/willdockery

Will Dockery
2011-10-25 02:59:35 UTC
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Post by dylanetics
Post by Will Dockery
By and large I agree with you ("no change there, then"!) but had hoped
to open this up to wider discussion. I really hoped that someone who
thinks 'Howl' is a masterpiece – for reasons other than its established
cultural status – might explain why.
This is a good idea since 'Howl' is indeed a masterpiece, and Allen
Ginsberg well known as one of the greatest of the 20th Century poets.
Maybe sending this over to the Beat Generation group, and perhaps even
the Dylan newsgroup where some of the scholars there might help
explain why Dylan himself holds the poetry of Ginsberg in such high
esteem will get a better response, which I've held off doing until
now.
--
Shark Pact Manifesto / Will Dockery & Shadowville http://youtu.be/Ft3X3kC6nr4
FWIW, here is what Dylan's blurb on the back cover of Ginsberg's
"Collected Poems," published in
"Ginsberg is both tragic and dynamic, a lyrical genius, con man
extraordinaire and probably the single greatest influence on American
poetical voice since Whitman."
Actually, I remember more of Ginsberg expounding on Dylan's poetry
than the other way around, such as the liner notes to 'Desire', which
I'm not sure are still used?

Or was that 'Desire' I'm thinking of or something else?

--
Shark Pact Manifesto / Will Dockery & Shadowville All-Stars:
http://youtu.be/Ft3X3kC6nr4
really real
2011-10-25 14:25:57 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
The fact remains, Howl is a great piece of poetry. I'm not sure how to
explain why this is, but surely someone can. The burst of Walt Whitman
style poetry applied to modern times, beyond any censorship and
repression, is about the best I can do.
Will Dockery
2011-10-25 14:34:21 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by really real
The fact remains, Howl is a great piece of poetry. I'm not sure how to
explain why this is, but surely someone can. The burst of Walt Whitman
style poetry applied to modern times, beyond any censorship and
repression, is about the best I can do.
That's what I'm saying... if David Moore from the Beat newsgroup sees
this, I wager he'll have some interesting thoughts and/or quotes, but
I'm not sure if any of my old Beatnik pals are still on Usenet.

--
Shark Pact Manifesto / Will Dockery & Shadowville All-Stars:
http://youtu.be/Ft3X3kC6nr4
Peter J Ross
2011-10-26 18:47:15 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
In alt.arts.poetry.comments on Tue, 25 Oct 2011 07:25:57 -0700, really
Post by really real
The fact remains, Howl is a great piece of poetry.
So far, your opinion seems to be in a minority.
Post by really real
I'm not sure how to
explain why this is, but surely someone can.
Your explanation is the best on offer so far. Fred Hall (who started
the discussion here in AAPC) is the only intelligent poster other than
you who has expressed any admiration for "Howl" at all, and he hasn't
provided his reasons. I'm intrigued to see that even most of your
fellow crossposters from the Dylan and Beat Generation groups seem to
regard "Howl" with condescending tolerance at best.
Post by really real
The burst of Walt Whitman
style poetry applied to modern times,
Unfortunately, I consider Whitman's attempts at writing poetry
contemptible. They're a lot like Ginsberg's attempts.

How does Ginsberg compare with *competent* Great American Poets, such
as Emerson, Robinson, Frost, Pound or Eliot?
Post by really real
beyond any censorship and repression,
Catullus and Rochester are at least as obscene as Ginsberg, but they
don't seem to have quite the same following.

/Lady Chatterley's Lover/ is D H Lawrence's worst novel by a long way,
but it's also the most widely read because it was regarded as obscene
within living memory. Maybe "Howl" is popular for similar reasons?
Post by really real
is about the best I can do.
It's the best anybody's done so far. Thanks.
--
PJR :-)
Hieronymous707
2011-10-26 18:57:13 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Peter J Ross
In alt.arts.poetry.comments on Tue, 25 Oct 2011 07:25:57 -0700, really
Post by really real
The fact remains, Howl is a great piece of poetry.
So far, your opinion seems to be in a minority.
LOL, where?
Brother Jumbo
2011-10-26 20:35:47 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Peter J Ross
In alt.arts.poetry.comments on Tue, 25 Oct 2011 07:25:57 -0700, really
Post by really real
The fact remains, Howl is a great piece of poetry.
So far, your opinion seems to be in a minority.
Post by really real
I'm not sure how to
explain why this is, but surely someone can.
Your explanation is the best on offer so far. Fred Hall (who started
the discussion here in AAPC) is the only intelligent poster other than
you who has expressed any admiration for "Howl" at all, and he hasn't
provided his reasons. I'm intrigued to see that even most of your
fellow crossposters from the Dylan and Beat Generation groups seem to
regard "Howl" with condescending tolerance at best.
Post by really real
The burst of Walt Whitman
style poetry applied to modern times,
Unfortunately, I consider Whitman's attempts at writing poetry
contemptible. They're a lot like Ginsberg's attempts.
Why "unfortunately"? It's only your opinion. Levelling Whitman with
Ginsberg doesn't say much for your critical chops, one has to say.
really real
2011-10-26 23:58:44 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Peter J Ross
How does Ginsberg compare with *competent* Great American Poets, such
as Emerson, Robinson, Frost, Pound or Eliot?
I don't know much about poetry but I know what I like.

Emerson bores me. Pound does too, but I like him better than
Emerson.

Robert Frost is a good poet and has written a lot of poems I like. But I
think Ginsberg is a better poet. Frost is indeed competent but it's nice
to have something more than competence in a poem.

Eliot is probably the king of modern poetry. Ginsberg has probably never
written anything as great as Prufrock or the Wasteland. But I think I
would place Ginsberg a close second.
Steve Hayes
2011-10-27 00:44:13 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Peter J Ross
In alt.arts.poetry.comments on Tue, 25 Oct 2011 07:25:57 -0700, really
Post by really real
The fact remains, Howl is a great piece of poetry.
So far, your opinion seems to be in a minority.
Post by really real
I'm not sure how to
explain why this is, but surely someone can.
Your explanation is the best on offer so far. Fred Hall (who started
the discussion here in AAPC) is the only intelligent poster other than
you who has expressed any admiration for "Howl" at all, and he hasn't
provided his reasons. I'm intrigued to see that even most of your
fellow crossposters from the Dylan and Beat Generation groups seem to
regard "Howl" with condescending tolerance at best.
Along the lines of "I don't know anything about art, but I know what I like"?

Either you like "Howl" or you don't.

Saying why you like it is sometimes more difficult, and too often ends up
stringing together a bunch of litcrit clichés.

I once, in an English exam, had to write an essay on the texture of Chaucer's
poetry. I had no idea what the question meant, and, having read it, every time
I put my pen to paper and felt the texture of the paper through the pen, it
gave me the heebie jeebies.

But if pushed to say what I like about "Howl", I think it is the evocative
imagery; the thought of driving cross-country for seventy-two hours to find
out if I had a vision or you had a vision or he had a vision to find out
eternity sort of appeals to me. Or it did when I was younger.
Post by Peter J Ross
Post by really real
The burst of Walt Whitman
style poetry applied to modern times,
Unfortunately, I consider Whitman's attempts at writing poetry
contemptible. They're a lot like Ginsberg's attempts.
How does Ginsberg compare with *competent* Great American Poets, such
as Emerson, Robinson, Frost, Pound or Eliot?
Post by really real
beyond any censorship and repression,
Catullus and Rochester are at least as obscene as Ginsberg, but they
don't seem to have quite the same following.
/Lady Chatterley's Lover/ is D H Lawrence's worst novel by a long way,
but it's also the most widely read because it was regarded as obscene
within living memory. Maybe "Howl" is popular for similar reasons?
Post by really real
is about the best I can do.
It's the best anybody's done so far. Thanks.
--
Steve Hayes
Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/litmain.htm
http://www.goodreads.com/hayesstw
http://www.bookcrossing.com/mybookshelf/Methodius
Peter J Ross
2011-10-28 19:06:08 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
In alt.arts.poetry.comments on Thu, 27 Oct 2011 02:44:13 +0200, Steve
Post by Steve Hayes
Post by Peter J Ross
In alt.arts.poetry.comments on Tue, 25 Oct 2011 07:25:57 -0700, really
Post by really real
The fact remains, Howl is a great piece of poetry.
So far, your opinion seems to be in a minority.
Post by really real
I'm not sure how to
explain why this is, but surely someone can.
Your explanation is the best on offer so far. Fred Hall (who started
the discussion here in AAPC) is the only intelligent poster other than
you who has expressed any admiration for "Howl" at all, and he hasn't
provided his reasons. I'm intrigued to see that even most of your
fellow crossposters from the Dylan and Beat Generation groups seem to
regard "Howl" with condescending tolerance at best.
Along the lines of "I don't know anything about art, but I know what I like"?
That's a perfectly reasonable attitude to have in private, though it's
not much of a basis for a critical theory.
Post by Steve Hayes
Either you like "Howl" or you don't.
That's also a perfectly reasonable attitude to have in private, but
"Howl" is often presented to impressionable young readers as something
they *ought* to like, so it ougfht to have some kind of objective
value.
Post by Steve Hayes
Saying why you like it is sometimes more difficult, and too often ends up
stringing together a bunch of litcrit clichés.
I once, in an English exam, had to write an essay on the texture of Chaucer's
poetry. I had no idea what the question meant, and, having read it, every time
I put my pen to paper and felt the texture of the paper through the pen, it
gave me the heebie jeebies.
I have no idea what that question means either.

Still, at least they showed you Chaucer. I had to discover him for
myself.
Post by Steve Hayes
But if pushed to say what I like about "Howl", I think it is the evocative
imagery; the thought of driving cross-country for seventy-two hours to find
out if I had a vision or you had a vision or he had a vision to find out
eternity sort of appeals to me. Or it did when I was younger.
Hmm. Couldn't that idea be expressed adequately in a dozen lines? As
for the "evocative imagery", most of it seems merely decorative to me.
In his cacophonous, unrhythmical, incoherent way, Ginsberg is having
fun playing with language far more than he's developing a theme.
--
PJR :-)
really real
2011-10-28 19:38:14 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by Peter J Ross
In his cacophonous, unrhythmical, incoherent way, Ginsberg is having
fun playing with language far more than he's developing a theme.
Ginsberg developed several themes. I felt one of the most important ones
was how war has changed our language, and with it, our perceptions.

Wichita Vortex Sutra had subthemes of loneliness and mysticism, but that
was the main theme.
Will Dockery
2011-10-28 20:28:19 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by really real
Post by Peter J Ross
In his cacophonous, unrhythmical, incoherent way, Ginsberg is having
fun playing with language far more than he's developing a theme.
Ginsberg developed several themes. I felt one of the most important ones
was how war has changed our language, and with it, our perceptions.
Wichita Vortex Sutra had subthemes of loneliness and mysticism, but that
was the main theme.
That was definitely a high point in Ginsberg's poetic development,
1967 or so, after meeting and sharing influence with Dylan.

--
Music & poetry from Will Dockery:
http://www.reverbnation.com/willdockery
M. Rick
2011-10-29 01:18:25 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
That was definitely a high point in Ginsberg's poetic development, 1967 or so, after meeting and sharing influence with Dylan.
All comparisons and critiques, negative and positive, always inure to
Dylan's benefit and the benefit of Dylan fans. If you like Ginsberg,
it's because he writes "free" like Dylan. If you don't, it's because
you prefer Dylan's formal traditionalism.
Jethro's Giant Brain
2011-10-31 16:02:53 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by M. Rick
Post by Will Dockery
That was definitely a high point in Ginsberg's poetic development,
1967 or so, after meeting and sharing influence with Dylan.
All comparisons and critiques, negative and positive, always inure to
Dylan's benefit and the benefit of Dylan fans. If you like Ginsberg,
it's because he writes "free" like Dylan. If you don't, it's because
you prefer Dylan's formal traditionalism.
I really like the line "fucked in the ass by saintly
motorcyclists, and screamed with joy" alot, almost as much as I like my
poem A Perfect Angel.

heh

skywriter.diaryland.com
the messenjah
2011-10-31 16:16:20 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Oct 31, 12:02 pm, "Jethro's Giant Brain"
Post by Jethro's Giant Brain
Post by M. Rick
Post by Will Dockery
That was definitely a high point in Ginsberg's poetic development,
1967 or so, after meeting and sharing influence with Dylan.
All comparisons and critiques, negative and positive, always inure to
Dylan's benefit and the benefit of Dylan fans.  If you like Ginsberg,
it's because he writes "free" like Dylan.  If you don't, it's because
you prefer Dylan's formal traditionalism.
I really like the line "fucked in the ass by saintly
motorcyclists, and screamed with joy" alot, almost as much as I like my
poem A Perfect Angel.
heh
skywriter.diaryland.com
Fred. You're a fuckhead. By the way, have the police contacted you
yet?
Fred Hall
2011-10-31 16:24:45 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by the messenjah
On Oct 31, 12:02 pm, "Jethro's Giant Brain"
innews:41b89540-16eb-400d-9ec6-
Post by M. Rick
Post by Will Dockery
That was definitely a high point in Ginsberg's poetic development,
1967 or so, after meeting and sharing influence with Dylan.
All comparisons and critiques, negative and positive, always inure
to Dylan's benefit and the benefit of Dylan fans.  If you like
Ginsberg, it's because he writes "free" like Dylan.  If you don't,
it's because you prefer Dylan's formal traditionalism.
I really like the line "fucked in the ass by saintly
motorcyclists, and screamed with joy" alot, almost as much as I like
my poem A Perfect Angel.
heh
skywriter.diaryland.com
Fred. You're a fuckhead. By the way, have the police contacted you
yet?
Why, do they need me to testify against you?
--
"These clowns are all Jokers!" - Rasta Khan
the messenjah
2011-10-31 16:38:46 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Fred Hall
Post by the messenjah
On Oct 31, 12:02 pm, "Jethro's Giant Brain"
innews:41b89540-16eb-400d-9ec6-
Post by M. Rick
Post by Will Dockery
That was definitely a high point in Ginsberg's poetic development,
1967 or so, after meeting and sharing influence with Dylan.
All comparisons and critiques, negative and positive, always inure
to Dylan's benefit and the benefit of Dylan fans.  If you like
Ginsberg, it's because he writes "free" like Dylan.  If you don't,
it's because you prefer Dylan's formal traditionalism.
I really like the line "fucked in the ass by saintly
motorcyclists, and screamed with joy" alot, almost as much as I like
my poem A Perfect Angel.
heh
skywriter.diaryland.com
Fred. You're a fuckhead. By the way, have the police contacted you
yet?
Why, do they need me to testify against you?
Fred. You're a fuckhead.
Post by Fred Hall
--
"These clowns are all Jokers!" - Rasta Khan
Brother Jumbo
2011-10-28 20:57:58 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Peter J Ross
Post by Steve Hayes
I once, in an English exam, had to write an essay on the texture of Chaucer's
poetry. I had no idea what the question meant, and, having read it, every time
I put my pen to paper and felt the texture of the paper through the pen, it
gave me the heebie jeebies.
I have no idea what that question means either.
It's quite a wild question, isn't it. Sadly I don't believe that it
was really phrased quite like that (or not *just* like that).
Peter J Ross
2011-10-28 21:21:12 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
In alt.arts.poetry.comments on Fri, 28 Oct 2011 13:57:58 -0700 (PDT),
Post by Brother Jumbo
Post by Peter J Ross
Post by Steve Hayes
I once, in an English exam, had to write an essay on the texture
of Chaucer's poetry. I had no idea what the question meant, and,
having read it, every time I put my pen to paper and felt the
texture of the paper through the pen, it gave me the heebie
jeebies.
I have no idea what that question means either.
It's quite a wild question, isn't it. Sadly I don't believe that it
was really phrased quite like that (or not *just* like that).
Textures
--------

Chaucer is furry; Milton is tough;
Pope is inflexible; Surrey is rough;
Shelley's too liquid, not rigid enough;
Dylan's quite chewy, and Ginsberg writes guff.
--
PJR :-)
M. Rick
2011-10-29 01:19:34 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Peter J Ross
Chaucer is furry; Milton is tough;
Pope is inflexible; Surrey is rough;
Shelley's too liquid, not rigid enough;
Dylan's quite chewy, and Ginsberg writes guff.
It's Friday Friday
Gotta have my cocoa puff
Gotta douche out my muff
Will Dockery
2011-10-29 17:53:17 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by M. Rick
Post by Peter J Ross
Chaucer is furry; Milton is tough;
Pope is inflexible; Surrey is rough;
Shelley's too liquid, not rigid enough;
Dylan's quite chewy, and Ginsberg writes guff.
It's Friday Friday
Gotta have my cocoa puff
Gotta douche out my muff
Wow, didn't Dylan once predict he'd someday be writing soap
commercials or somesuch?

--
Music & poetry from Will Dockery:
http://www.reverbnation.com/willdockery
Will Dockery
2011-10-29 01:03:13 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Steve Hayes
Post by Peter J Ross
In alt.arts.poetry.comments on Tue, 25 Oct 2011 07:25:57 -0700, really
Post by really real
The fact remains, Howl is a great piece of poetry.
So far, your opinion seems to be in a minority.
Post by really real
I'm not sure how to
explain why this is, but surely someone can.
Your explanation is the best on offer so far. Fred Hall (who started
the discussion here in AAPC) is the only intelligent poster other than
you who has expressed any admiration for "Howl" at all, and he hasn't
provided his reasons. I'm intrigued to see that even most of your
fellow crossposters from the Dylan and Beat Generation groups seem to
regard "Howl" with condescending tolerance at best.
Along the lines of "I don't know anything about art, but I know what I like"?
Either you like "Howl" or you don't.
Yes, as with so much poetry and art, and Beat writings in particular.
Post by Steve Hayes
Saying why you like it is sometimes more difficult, and too often ends up
stringing together a bunch of litcrit clichés.
I once, in an English exam, had to write an essay on the texture of Chaucer's
poetry. I had no idea what the question meant, and, having read it, every time
I put my pen to paper and felt the texture of the paper through the pen, it
gave me the heebie jeebies.
But if pushed to say what I like about "Howl", I think it is the evocative
imagery; the thought of driving cross-country for seventy-two hours to find
out if I had a vision or you had a vision or he had a vision  to find out
eternity sort of appeals to me. Or it did when I was younger.
Ginsberg and Kerouac were writing in a very different, traditional
style for years before they exploded the language and created this new
way of stotytelling with 'Howl' & 'On The Road', and opened the doors
for the expanded thinking of the decades to come, the rush of sound &
vision:

"The only people for me are the mad ones, the ones who are mad to
live, mad to talk, mad to be saved, desirous of everything at the same
time, the ones who never yawn or say a commonplace thing, but burn,
burn, burn, like fabulous yellow roman candles exploding like spiders
across the stars..." -Jack Kerouac

http://stonateasmuse.blogspot.com/2011/08/roman-candle-burning-low.html
Post by Steve Hayes
Post by Peter J Ross
Post by really real
The burst of Walt Whitman
style poetry applied to modern times,
Unfortunately, I consider Whitman's attempts at writing poetry
contemptible. They're a lot like Ginsberg's attempts.
How does Ginsberg compare with *competent* Great American Poets, such
as Emerson, Robinson, Frost, Pound or Eliot?
Post by really real
beyond any censorship and repression,
Catullus and Rochester are at least as obscene as Ginsberg, but they
don't seem to have quite the same following.
/Lady Chatterley's Lover/ is D H Lawrence's worst novel by a long way,
but it's also the most widely read because it was regarded as obscene
within living memory. Maybe "Howl" is popular for similar reasons?
Post by really real
is about the best I can do.
It's the best anybody's done so far. Thanks.
--
Steve Hayes
Web:http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/litmain.htm
     http://www.goodreads.com/hayesstw
     http://www.bookcrossing.com/mybookshelf/Methodius
--
Will Dockery & Friends at Hogbottom:

Will Dockery
2011-11-01 03:07:06 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
No, it's different and important content. I remember, during the Vietnam
War, that we thought the Asians would just keep fighting to save face.
We thought they didn't care about life the way we did.
I think you're reading something into it that isn't there.
If not, you seem to be saying that the text is good because you agree
with it.
What I like about so much of Wichita Vortex Sutra is that Ginsberg puts
into words things that I had only partly thought of. Dylan's songwriting
has been described this way
Exactly:

"With a voice that came from you and me."

Another of those voices that often spoke to/for me is Lou Reed.

Looking forward to the Lou Reed-Metallica collaboration due to be released
tomorrow, as well.
Of course I agreed with Ginsberg that America should stop the Vietnam
War. But it was the way Ginsberg said these things that was so amazing.
He made us stop and eat more flesh.
The fact remains, Howl is a great piece of poetry. I'm not sure how to
explain why this is, but surely someone can. The burst of Walt Whitman
style poetry applied to modern times, beyond any censorship and
repression, is about the best I can do.
--
Red Lipped Stranger by Will Dockery & The Shadowville All-Stars:

treadleson
2011-11-03 17:36:28 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by dylanetics
Post by Will Dockery
By and large I agree with you ("no change there, then"!) but had hoped
to open this up to wider discussion. I really hoped that someone who
thinks 'Howl' is a masterpiece – for reasons other than its established
cultural status – might explain why.
This is a good idea since 'Howl' is indeed a masterpiece, and Allen
Ginsberg well known as one of the greatest of the 20th Century poets.
Maybe sending this over to the Beat Generation group, and perhaps even
the Dylan newsgroup where some of the scholars there might help
explain why Dylan himself holds the poetry of Ginsberg in such high
esteem will get a better response, which I've held off doing until
now.
--
Shark Pact Manifesto / Will Dockery & Shadowville http://youtu.be/Ft3X3kC6nr4
FWIW, here is what Dylan's blurb on the back cover of Ginsberg's
"Collected Poems," published in
"Ginsberg is both tragic and dynamic, a lyrical genius, con man
extraordinaire and probably the single greatest influence on American
poetical voice since Whitman."
Good to see all the Howl detractors present and accounted for.

I lu-uh-uh-uh-uh-uv Howl. Except for Kaddish, none of his other stuff
ever hit me that well. So much of the other work seems amateurish and
unpoetic.

Howl is insanely beautiful.
George Dance
2011-10-29 00:45:50 UTC
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All mine that I can think of are intended to be read aloud by a reader
to a listener or listeners, who should put themselves in the places of
the narrator and the person or persons whom the narrator is
addressing.
The phrase you're looking for is 'dramatic monologue'.

It's wonderful to know that you think of your, er, contributions that
way, ~PJ~. That gives me an opportunity to improve the quality of
criticism around here: instead of having to call your offerings
"turds," or "pieces of shit," I will now be able to refer to them as
"Brownings."
Will Dockery
2011-10-29 17:49:53 UTC
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Post by George Dance
All mine that I can think of are intended to be read aloud by a reader
to a listener or listeners, who should put themselves in the places of
the narrator and the person or persons whom the narrator is
addressing.
The phrase you're looking for is 'dramatic monologue'.
It's wonderful to know that you think of your, er, contributions that
way, ~PJ~. That gives me an opportunity to improve the quality of
criticism around here: instead of having to call your offerings
"turds," or "pieces of shit," I will now be able to refer to them as
"Brownings."
A bit more... gassy, imo.

--
Music & poetry from Will Dockery:
http://www.reverbnation.com/willdockery
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