Discussion:
Shock Poetry discussion
(too old to reply)
Will Dockery
2010-02-01 20:36:39 UTC
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Raw Message
I might be inclined to give
real poets the artistic license to delve into subjects with gray area
content. However just because the work of some real poets bear
similarity does not mean their intent was similar. And just because
these are real poets does not mean I have to like or agree with their
work.
Of course not... who's asking you to?
You've titled your post "Shock Poetry Discussion"
So, let's discuss Shock Poetry....
You first, and Howl doesn't count
First, why does Howl not count? It was fairly shocking when it was
new.

--
"Truck Stop Woman" by Dockery & Conley (video):

Fred Hall
2010-02-01 21:11:29 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Mon, 1 Feb 2010 12:36:39 -0800 (PST), Will Dockery
Post by Will Dockery
I might be inclined to give
real poets the artistic license to delve into subjects with gray area
content. However just because the work of some real poets bear
similarity does not mean their intent was similar. And just because
these are real poets does not mean I have to like or agree with their
work.
Of course not... who's asking you to?
You've titled your post "Shock Poetry Discussion"
So, let's discuss Shock Poetry....
You first, and Howl doesn't count
First, why does Howl not count? It was fairly shocking when it was
new.
It was very shocking when new. Kinda like a gay Henry Miller sorta
thang.

To answer your question: Howl, as Shock Poetry, is obvious and
overdone. What other Shock Poetry, from the distant past or from The
Now, can we compare PedoChuck's *A Perfect Angel * to?
Will Dockery
2010-02-01 21:21:23 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Will Dockery
I might be inclined to give
real poets the artistic license to delve into subjects with gray area
content. However just because the work of some real poets bear
similarity does not mean their intent was similar. And just because
these are real poets does not mean I have to like or agree with their
work.
Of course not... who's asking you to?
You've titled your post "Shock Poetry Discussion"
So, let's discuss Shock Poetry....
You first, and Howl doesn't count
First, why does Howl not count? It was fairly shocking when it was
new.
It was very shocking when new.  Kinda like a gay Henry Miller sorta
thang.
To answer your question: Howl, as Shock Poetry, is obvious and
overdone.  What other Shock Poetry, from the distant past or from The
Now, can we compare PedoChuck's *A Perfect Angel * to?
For starters, definitely some of Bukowski and even later Allen
Ginsberg.

Did you know that Ginsberg actually was a member of NAMBLA before his
death? Shameful (and shocking) but true.

--
"Truck Stop Woman" by Dockery & Conley (video):
http://youtu.be/kvtQEf7bnfs
George Dance
2010-02-02 14:48:49 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Will Dockery
Post by Will Dockery
I might be inclined to give
real poets the artistic license to delve into subjects with gray area
content. However just because the work of some real poets bear
similarity does not mean their intent was similar. And just because
these are real poets does not mean I have to like or agree with their
work.
Of course not... who's asking you to?
You've titled your post "Shock Poetry Discussion"
So, let's discuss Shock Poetry....
You first, and Howl doesn't count
First, why does Howl not count? It was fairly shocking when it was
new.
It was very shocking when new.  Kinda like a gay Henry Miller sorta
thang.
To answer your question: Howl, as Shock Poetry, is obvious and
overdone.  What other Shock Poetry, from the distant past or from The
Now, can we compare PedoChuck's *A Perfect Angel * to?
For starters, definitely some of Bukowski and even later Allen
Ginsberg.
Did you know that Ginsberg actually was a member of NAMBLA before his
death? Shameful (and shocking) but true.
I don't know what happened to Freddy: he seemed so interested in
discussing the topic. I guess we'll have to go on without him, and
hope he pops back in.

My own preference is to compare the two poems that have already been
posted onto the thread. I'm not sure what the questions are -- I
suppose things like, "Which is the better poem?", "Which is more
shocking?", etc. -- so I'll limit myself for now to just putting up
the poems again stripped of all the carets. I'll also identify them as
A and B to make it easier to refer to them later. (I think that'll be
easier to remember: A for Angel, B for the other one.)

A. A Perfect Angel

i knew it was wrong
i'm not really a good babysitter
i felt myself getting hard
as she sat in my lap
and then she kissed me
i told her no
she kept kissing me
soon the passion
was too much
i grabbed her
and slammed my swollen cock
into her virgin pussy
and exploded as she screamed
hours of screams
then...
her parents came home
asked if she did her homework
and if she behaved
she looked at me
and wet her lips with her tongue
i said yes
she was a perfect angel

- Chuck Lysaght

B. Graffito

you wrote
fuck you
on my wall
with a pen

I wrote
fuck you
on your heart
with a knife

- Peter J. Ross
Post by Will Dockery
--
"Truck Stop Woman" by Dockery & Conley http://youtu.be/kvtQEf7bnfs
Will Dockery
2010-02-02 17:02:37 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by George Dance
Post by Will Dockery
Post by Will Dockery
I might be inclined to give
real poets the artistic license to delve into subjects with gray area
content. However just because the work of some real poets bear
similarity does not mean their intent was similar. And just because
these are real poets does not mean I have to like or agree with their
work.
Of course not... who's asking you to?
You've titled your post "Shock Poetry Discussion"
So, let's discuss Shock Poetry....
You first, and Howl doesn't count
First, why does Howl not count? It was fairly shocking when it was
new.
It was very shocking when new.  Kinda like a gay Henry Miller sorta
thang.
To answer your question: Howl, as Shock Poetry, is obvious and
overdone.  What other Shock Poetry, from the distant past or from The
Now, can we compare PedoChuck's *A Perfect Angel * to?
For starters, definitely some of Bukowski and even later Allen
Ginsberg.
Did you know that Ginsberg actually was a member of NAMBLA before his
death? Shameful (and shocking) but true.
I don't know what happened to Freddy: he seemed so interested in
discussing the topic. I guess we'll have to go on without him, and
hope he pops back in.
I've had bits of good conversation with Fred over the years, but he
does pop out pretty fast... generally he just seems to come around
from time-to-time to follow Chuck...
Post by George Dance
My own preference is to compare the two poems that have already been
posted onto the thread. I'm not sure what the questions are -- I
suppose things like, "Which is the better poem?", "Which is more
shocking?", etc. -- so I'll limit myself for now to just putting up
the poems again stripped of all the carets. I'll also identify them as
A and B to make it easier to refer to them later. (I think that'll be
easier to remember: A for Angel, B for the other one.)
A. A Perfect Angel
i knew it was wrong
i'm not really a good babysitter
i felt myself getting hard
as she sat in my lap
and then she kissed me
i told her no
she kept kissing me
soon the passion
was too much
i grabbed her
and slammed my swollen cock
into her virgin pussy
and exploded as she screamed
hours of screams
then...
her parents came home
asked if she did her homework
and if she behaved
she looked at me
and wet her lips with her tongue
i said yes
she was a perfect angel
- Chuck Lysaght
B. Graffito
fuck you
on my wall
with a pen
fuck you
on your heart
with a knife
- Peter J. Ross
--
"She Sleeps Tight", vocals by Will Dockery & Sandy Madaris, guitars by
Brian Mallard. Paintings by George Sulzbach.

Post by George Dance
--
Post by Will Dockery
"Truck Stop Woman" by Dockery & Conley http://youtu.be/kvtQEf7bnfs
George Dance
2010-02-02 17:42:31 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Will Dockery
Post by George Dance
Post by Will Dockery
Post by Will Dockery
I might be inclined to give
real poets the artistic license to delve into subjects with gray area
content. However just because the work of some real poets bear
similarity does not mean their intent was similar. And just because
these are real poets does not mean I have to like or agree with their
work.
Of course not... who's asking you to?
You've titled your post "Shock Poetry Discussion"
So, let's discuss Shock Poetry....
You first, and Howl doesn't count
First, why does Howl not count? It was fairly shocking when it was
new.
It was very shocking when new.  Kinda like a gay Henry Miller sorta
thang.
To answer your question: Howl, as Shock Poetry, is obvious and
overdone.  What other Shock Poetry, from the distant past or from The
Now, can we compare PedoChuck's *A Perfect Angel * to?
For starters, definitely some of Bukowski and even later Allen
Ginsberg.
Did you know that Ginsberg actually was a member of NAMBLA before his
death? Shameful (and shocking) but true.
I don't know what happened to Freddy: he seemed so interested in
discussing the topic. I guess we'll have to go on without him, and
hope he pops back in.
I've had bits of good conversation with Fred over the years, but he
does pop out pretty fast... generally he just seems to come around
from time-to-time to follow Chuck...
Well, if he does want to stick around AAPC to talk about poetry, he's
welcome to IMO: the more the merrier.. Maybe he'll even try to write
some, but that's not obligatory for posting here.

In the meantime, I suppose I should kick the discussion off by giving
my first thoughts on the two poems.
Post by Will Dockery
Post by George Dance
My own preference is to compare the two poems that have already been
posted onto the thread. I'm not sure what the questions are -- I
suppose things like, "Which is the better poem?", "Which is more
shocking?", etc. -- so I'll limit myself for now to just putting up
the poems again stripped of all the carets. I'll also identify them as
A and B to make it easier to refer to them later. (I think that'll be
easier to remember: A for Angel, B for the other one.)
A. A Perfect Angel
i knew it was wrong
i'm not really a good babysitter
i felt myself getting hard
as she sat in my lap
and then she kissed me
i told her no
she kept kissing me
soon the passion
was too much
i grabbed her
and slammed my swollen cock
into her virgin pussy
and exploded as she screamed
hours of screams
then...
her parents came home
asked if she did her homework
and if she behaved
she looked at me
and wet her lips with her tongue
i said yes
she was a perfect angel
- Chuck Lysaght
My first thoughts when I read this: this is about two teens having
sex. The simple diction, the lack of imagery or other poetic devices,
and the run-on conversational style (all one sentence linked with
recurring 'and's) all make the speaker sound very young. The opening
line, "I knew it was wrong" is very good in that respect. He really
didn't know it was wrong, of course; thinking something is wrong
implies not doing it. What he knows is that it's "wrong": ie, that
other people have told him that it's wrong and he's internalized it
(the way someone living with his parents would be internalizing them).
That, and the info in the next line that he's a babysitter were what
first made me think it was by a teen.

As for the "shock," there isn't much of one; the two kids have sex,
and get away with it. There's nothing very remarkable about any of it.
The only intended shock value I can see in it comes from using all
those 'dirty' words, which would offend some people I suppose, but
really would only 'shock' someone who's never seen them in print
before (which again makes me think teenager). The fact they got away
with it may offend some sensibilities, too, but certainly isn't
morally offensive: the idea that it would, again indicates a teen:
someone who's confused morality with the way his parents want him to
behave.

So; two teens having sex. Good clean fun. But nothing very interesting
about it; nothing that merits a reread. On the internal evidence, I'd
judge the poem as either very skilled, or the complete opposite:
either a young man about as much experience in poetry writing as sex
(and the same immature idea that because both are so wonderful to him,
others will be equally interested) -- or a very competent writer who's
managed to capture that voice perfectly here.
Post by Will Dockery
Post by George Dance
B. Graffito
fuck you
on my wall
with a pen
fuck you
on your heart
with a knife
- Peter J. Ross
B is much better written. Note the use of metaphor to say what
happened (vs. the literal description in A), and the holding back of
the killing, as a sort of punchline, until the end. All that makes the
speaker sound like an adult.So it's an adult and he's stabbing
someone. Who? If one interprets S1 metaphorically, then there's not
much information: the victim is just someone who's told the speaker to
f.o., who's rejected him in some way, and got killed for it.

However, if one interprets S1 literally -- and that's important even
if it's a metaphor, just because the writer chose that particular
vehicle for his metaphor -- we learn something about the auditor (the
"you"): that he or she is old enough to write, but still young enough
to scribble on walls. Say, seven years old.

So I'd read B as a story about an adult killing a seven-year-old: Much
more shocking than the teen-sex of A, and also more skillfully told.
Post by Will Dockery
--
"She Sleeps Tight", vocals by Will Dockery & Sandy Madaris, guitars by
Brian Mallard. Paintings by George http://youtu.be/9uGY157cpiU
Post by George Dance
--
Post by Will Dockery
"Truck Stop Woman" by Dockery & Conley http://youtu.be/kvtQEf7bnfs
Will Dockery
2010-02-02 18:00:44 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by George Dance
Post by Will Dockery
Post by George Dance
Post by Will Dockery
Post by Will Dockery
I might be inclined to give
real poets the artistic license to delve into subjects with gray area
content. However just because the work of some real poets bear
similarity does not mean their intent was similar. And just because
these are real poets does not mean I have to like or agree with their
work.
Of course not... who's asking you to?
You've titled your post "Shock Poetry Discussion"
So, let's discuss Shock Poetry....
You first, and Howl doesn't count
First, why does Howl not count? It was fairly shocking when it was
new.
It was very shocking when new.  Kinda like a gay Henry Miller sorta
thang.
To answer your question: Howl, as Shock Poetry, is obvious and
overdone.  What other Shock Poetry, from the distant past or from The
Now, can we compare PedoChuck's *A Perfect Angel * to?
For starters, definitely some of Bukowski and even later Allen
Ginsberg.
Did you know that Ginsberg actually was a member of NAMBLA before his
death? Shameful (and shocking) but true.
I don't know what happened to Freddy: he seemed so interested in
discussing the topic. I guess we'll have to go on without him, and
hope he pops back in.
I've had bits of good conversation with Fred over the years, but he
does pop out pretty fast... generally he just seems to come around
from time-to-time to follow Chuck...
Well, if he does want to stick around AAPC to talk about poetry, he's
welcome to IMO: the more the merrier.. Maybe he'll even try to write
some, but that's not obligatory for posting here.
In the meantime, I suppose I should kick the discussion off by giving
my first thoughts on the two poems.
Post by Will Dockery
Post by George Dance
My own preference is to compare the two poems that have already been
posted onto the thread. I'm not sure what the questions are -- I
suppose things like, "Which is the better poem?", "Which is more
shocking?", etc. -- so I'll limit myself for now to just putting up
the poems again stripped of all the carets. I'll also identify them as
A and B to make it easier to refer to them later. (I think that'll be
easier to remember: A for Angel, B for the other one.)
A. A Perfect Angel
i knew it was wrong
i'm not really a good babysitter
i felt myself getting hard
as she sat in my lap
and then she kissed me
i told her no
she kept kissing me
soon the passion
was too much
i grabbed her
and slammed my swollen cock
into her virgin pussy
and exploded as she screamed
hours of screams
then...
her parents came home
asked if she did her homework
and if she behaved
she looked at me
and wet her lips with her tongue
i said yes
she was a perfect angel
- Chuck Lysaght
My first thoughts when I read this: this is about two teens having
sex. The simple diction, the lack of imagery or other poetic devices,
and the run-on conversational style (all one sentence linked with
recurring 'and's) all make the speaker sound very young. The opening
line, "I knew it was wrong" is very good in that respect. He really
didn't know it was wrong, of course; thinking something is wrong
implies not doing it. What he knows is that it's "wrong": ie, that
other people have told him that it's wrong and he's internalized it
(the way someone living with his parents would be internalizing them).
That, and the info in the next line that he's a babysitter were what
first made me think it was by a teen.
As for the "shock," there isn't much of one; the two kids have sex,
and get away with it. There's nothing very remarkable about any of it.
The only intended shock value I can see in it comes from using all
those 'dirty' words, which would offend some people I suppose, but
really would only 'shock' someone who's never seen them in print
before (which again makes me think teenager). The fact they got away
with it may offend some sensibilities, too, but certainly isn't
someone who's confused morality with the way his parents want him to
behave.
So; two teens having sex. Good clean fun. But nothing very interesting
about it; nothing that merits a reread. On the internal evidence, I'd
either a young man about as much experience in poetry writing as sex
(and the same immature idea that because both are so wonderful to him,
others will be equally interested) -- or a very competent writer who's
managed to capture that voice perfectly here.
Post by Will Dockery
Post by George Dance
B. Graffito
fuck you
on my wall
with a pen
fuck you
on your heart
with a knife
- Peter J. Ross
B is much better written. Note the use of metaphor to say what
happened (vs. the literal description in A), and the holding back of
the killing, as a sort of punchline, until the end. All that makes the
speaker sound like an adult.So it's an adult and he's stabbing
someone. Who? If one interprets S1 metaphorically, then there's not
much information: the victim is just someone who's told the speaker to
f.o., who's rejected him in some way, and got killed for it.
However, if one interprets S1 literally -- and that's important even
if it's a metaphor, just because the writer chose that particular
vehicle for his metaphor -- we learn something about the auditor (the
"you"): that he or she is old enough to write, but still young enough
to scribble on walls. Say, seven years old.
So I'd read B as a story about an adult killing a seven-year-old: Much
more shocking than the teen-sex of A, and also more skillfully told.
A case of "Write what you know", perhaps? Creepy...

--
Tentative list of performers at Hogbottom 5, so far: 1) Wildwood
Bluegrass 2) Rick Edwards3) Blue Harvest4) Jimmy Jam and the Big Fun
5) Will Dockery & The Shadowville All-Stars6) The Buddy Harden Band
7) Henry Conley8) Katt Redd9) Bibb City Ramblers10) Strokin' Dixie
11) Gini Woolfolk12) Joey Allcorn 13) Gravey Robbers
http://www.myspace.com/willdockery
Post by George Dance
Post by Will Dockery
--
"She Sleeps Tight", vocals by Will Dockery & Sandy Madaris, guitars by
Brian Mallard. Paintings by George http://youtu.be/9uGY157cpiU
Post by George Dance
--
Post by Will Dockery
"Truck Stop Woman" by Dockery & Conley http://youtu.be/kvtQEf7bnfs
George Dance
2010-02-02 18:13:14 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Will Dockery
Post by George Dance
Post by Will Dockery
Post by George Dance
Post by Will Dockery
Post by Will Dockery
I might be inclined to give
real poets the artistic license to delve into subjects with gray area
content. However just because the work of some real poets bear
similarity does not mean their intent was similar. And just because
these are real poets does not mean I have to like or agree with their
work.
Of course not... who's asking you to?
You've titled your post "Shock Poetry Discussion"
So, let's discuss Shock Poetry....
You first, and Howl doesn't count
First, why does Howl not count? It was fairly shocking when it was
new.
It was very shocking when new.  Kinda like a gay Henry Miller sorta
thang.
To answer your question: Howl, as Shock Poetry, is obvious and
overdone.  What other Shock Poetry, from the distant past or from The
Now, can we compare PedoChuck's *A Perfect Angel * to?
For starters, definitely some of Bukowski and even later Allen
Ginsberg.
Did you know that Ginsberg actually was a member of NAMBLA before his
death? Shameful (and shocking) but true.
I don't know what happened to Freddy: he seemed so interested in
discussing the topic. I guess we'll have to go on without him, and
hope he pops back in.
I've had bits of good conversation with Fred over the years, but he
does pop out pretty fast... generally he just seems to come around
from time-to-time to follow Chuck...
Well, if he does want to stick around AAPC to talk about poetry, he's
welcome to IMO: the more the merrier.. Maybe he'll even try to write
some, but that's not obligatory for posting here.
In the meantime, I suppose I should kick the discussion off by giving
my first thoughts on the two poems.
Post by Will Dockery
Post by George Dance
My own preference is to compare the two poems that have already been
posted onto the thread. I'm not sure what the questions are -- I
suppose things like, "Which is the better poem?", "Which is more
shocking?", etc. -- so I'll limit myself for now to just putting up
the poems again stripped of all the carets. I'll also identify them as
A and B to make it easier to refer to them later. (I think that'll be
easier to remember: A for Angel, B for the other one.)
A. A Perfect Angel
i knew it was wrong
i'm not really a good babysitter
i felt myself getting hard
as she sat in my lap
and then she kissed me
i told her no
she kept kissing me
soon the passion
was too much
i grabbed her
and slammed my swollen cock
into her virgin pussy
and exploded as she screamed
hours of screams
then...
her parents came home
asked if she did her homework
and if she behaved
she looked at me
and wet her lips with her tongue
i said yes
she was a perfect angel
- Chuck Lysaght
My first thoughts when I read this: this is about two teens having
sex. The simple diction, the lack of imagery or other poetic devices,
and the run-on conversational style (all one sentence linked with
recurring 'and's) all make the speaker sound very young. The opening
line, "I knew it was wrong" is very good in that respect. He really
didn't know it was wrong, of course; thinking something is wrong
implies not doing it. What he knows is that it's "wrong": ie, that
other people have told him that it's wrong and he's internalized it
(the way someone living with his parents would be internalizing them).
That, and the info in the next line that he's a babysitter were what
first made me think it was by a teen.
As for the "shock," there isn't much of one; the two kids have sex,
and get away with it. There's nothing very remarkable about any of it.
The only intended shock value I can see in it comes from using all
those 'dirty' words, which would offend some people I suppose, but
really would only 'shock' someone who's never seen them in print
before (which again makes me think teenager). The fact they got away
with it may offend some sensibilities, too, but certainly isn't
someone who's confused morality with the way his parents want him to
behave.
So; two teens having sex. Good clean fun. But nothing very interesting
about it; nothing that merits a reread. On the internal evidence, I'd
either a young man about as much experience in poetry writing as sex
(and the same immature idea that because both are so wonderful to him,
others will be equally interested) -- or a very competent writer who's
managed to capture that voice perfectly here.
Post by Will Dockery
Post by George Dance
B. Graffito
fuck you
on my wall
with a pen
fuck you
on your heart
with a knife
- Peter J. Ross
B is much better written. Note the use of metaphor to say what
happened (vs. the literal description in A), and the holding back of
the killing, as a sort of punchline, until the end. All that makes the
speaker sound like an adult.So it's an adult and he's stabbing
someone. Who? If one interprets S1 metaphorically, then there's not
much information: the victim is just someone who's told the speaker to
f.o., who's rejected him in some way, and got killed for it.
However, if one interprets S1 literally -- and that's important even
if it's a metaphor, just because the writer chose that particular
vehicle for his metaphor -- we learn something about the auditor (the
"you"): that he or she is old enough to write, but still young enough
to scribble on walls. Say, seven years old.
So I'd read B as a story about an adult killing a seven-year-old: Much
more shocking than the teen-sex of A, and also more skillfully told.
A case of "Write what you know", perhaps? Creepy...
Yuck, I hope not. I'd rather think it's just thought; that the poet
just likes to think about it. So long as it's just thought, then I'd
say there's nothing morally wrong with it -- as long as it doesn't
translate into action, then it doesn't affect anyone but the thinker.
And if the only physical action it translates into is a written poem,
it doesn't really affect anyone: a person who doesn't like being
shocked by it can just not read it or other poems by that author.

But, creepy? Yes, I'd agree with that; even if it is just something
the writer likes to think about. The idea of killing a child for
writing dirty words on the wall does creep me out; in fact, the idea
of killing a child for any reason creeps me out. Using a knife, with
all the attendant blood and gore, just makes it worse IMO.
Post by Will Dockery
--
Tentative list of performers at Hogbottom 5, so far: 1) Wildwood
Bluegrass 2) Rick Edwards3) Blue Harvest4) Jimmy Jam and the Big Fun
5) Will Dockery & The Shadowville All-Stars6) The Buddy Harden Band
7) Henry Conley8) Katt Redd9) Bibb City Ramblers10) Strokin' Dixie
11) Gini Woolfolk12) Joey Allcorn 13) Gravey Robbershttp://www.myspace.com/willdockery
Post by George Dance
Post by Will Dockery
--
"She Sleeps Tight", vocals by Will Dockery & Sandy Madaris, guitars by
Brian Mallard. Paintings by George http://youtu.be/9uGY157cpiU
Post by George Dance
--
Post by Will Dockery
"Truck Stop Woman" by Dockery & Conley http://youtu.be/kvtQEf7bnfs
Will Dockery
2010-02-02 18:19:44 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by George Dance
Post by Will Dockery
Post by George Dance
Post by Will Dockery
Post by George Dance
Post by Will Dockery
Post by Will Dockery
I might be inclined to give
real poets the artistic license to delve into subjects with gray area
content. However just because the work of some real poets bear
similarity does not mean their intent was similar. And just because
these are real poets does not mean I have to like or agree with their
work.
Of course not... who's asking you to?
You've titled your post "Shock Poetry Discussion"
So, let's discuss Shock Poetry....
You first, and Howl doesn't count
First, why does Howl not count? It was fairly shocking when it was
new.
It was very shocking when new.  Kinda like a gay Henry Miller sorta
thang.
To answer your question: Howl, as Shock Poetry, is obvious and
overdone.  What other Shock Poetry, from the distant past or from The
Now, can we compare PedoChuck's *A Perfect Angel * to?
For starters, definitely some of Bukowski and even later Allen
Ginsberg.
Did you know that Ginsberg actually was a member of NAMBLA before his
death? Shameful (and shocking) but true.
I don't know what happened to Freddy: he seemed so interested in
discussing the topic. I guess we'll have to go on without him, and
hope he pops back in.
I've had bits of good conversation with Fred over the years, but he
does pop out pretty fast... generally he just seems to come around
from time-to-time to follow Chuck...
Well, if he does want to stick around AAPC to talk about poetry, he's
welcome to IMO: the more the merrier.. Maybe he'll even try to write
some, but that's not obligatory for posting here.
In the meantime, I suppose I should kick the discussion off by giving
my first thoughts on the two poems.
Post by Will Dockery
Post by George Dance
My own preference is to compare the two poems that have already been
posted onto the thread. I'm not sure what the questions are -- I
suppose things like, "Which is the better poem?", "Which is more
shocking?", etc. -- so I'll limit myself for now to just putting up
the poems again stripped of all the carets. I'll also identify them as
A and B to make it easier to refer to them later. (I think that'll be
easier to remember: A for Angel, B for the other one.)
A. A Perfect Angel
i knew it was wrong
i'm not really a good babysitter
i felt myself getting hard
as she sat in my lap
and then she kissed me
i told her no
she kept kissing me
soon the passion
was too much
i grabbed her
and slammed my swollen cock
into her virgin pussy
and exploded as she screamed
hours of screams
then...
her parents came home
asked if she did her homework
and if she behaved
she looked at me
and wet her lips with her tongue
i said yes
she was a perfect angel
- Chuck Lysaght
My first thoughts when I read this: this is about two teens having
sex. The simple diction, the lack of imagery or other poetic devices,
and the run-on conversational style (all one sentence linked with
recurring 'and's) all make the speaker sound very young. The opening
line, "I knew it was wrong" is very good in that respect. He really
didn't know it was wrong, of course; thinking something is wrong
implies not doing it. What he knows is that it's "wrong": ie, that
other people have told him that it's wrong and he's internalized it
(the way someone living with his parents would be internalizing them).
That, and the info in the next line that he's a babysitter were what
first made me think it was by a teen.
As for the "shock," there isn't much of one; the two kids have sex,
and get away with it. There's nothing very remarkable about any of it.
The only intended shock value I can see in it comes from using all
those 'dirty' words, which would offend some people I suppose, but
really would only 'shock' someone who's never seen them in print
before (which again makes me think teenager). The fact they got away
with it may offend some sensibilities, too, but certainly isn't
someone who's confused morality with the way his parents want him to
behave.
So; two teens having sex. Good clean fun. But nothing very interesting
about it; nothing that merits a reread. On the internal evidence, I'd
either a young man about as much experience in poetry writing as sex
(and the same immature idea that because both are so wonderful to him,
others will be equally interested) -- or a very competent writer who's
managed to capture that voice perfectly here.
Post by Will Dockery
Post by George Dance
B. Graffito
fuck you
on my wall
with a pen
fuck you
on your heart
with a knife
- Peter J. Ross
B is much better written. Note the use of metaphor to say what
happened (vs. the literal description in A), and the holding back of
the killing, as a sort of punchline, until the end. All that makes the
speaker sound like an adult.So it's an adult and he's stabbing
someone. Who? If one interprets S1 metaphorically, then there's not
much information: the victim is just someone who's told the speaker to
f.o., who's rejected him in some way, and got killed for it.
However, if one interprets S1 literally -- and that's important even
if it's a metaphor, just because the writer chose that particular
vehicle for his metaphor -- we learn something about the auditor (the
"you"): that he or she is old enough to write, but still young enough
to scribble on walls. Say, seven years old.
So I'd read B as a story about an adult killing a seven-year-old: Much
more shocking than the teen-sex of A, and also more skillfully told.
A case of "Write what you know", perhaps? Creepy...
Yuck, I hope not. I'd rather think it's just thought; that the poet
just likes to think about it. So long as it's just thought, then I'd
say there's nothing morally wrong with it -- as long as it doesn't
translate into action, then it doesn't affect anyone but the thinker.
And if the only physical action it translates into is a written poem,
it doesn't really affect anyone: a person who doesn't like being
shocked by it can just not read it or other poems by that author.
But, creepy? Yes, I'd agree with that; even if it is just something
the writer likes to think about. The idea of killing a child for
writing dirty words on the wall does creep me out; in fact, the idea
of killing a child for any reason creeps me out. Using a knife, with
all the attendant blood and gore, just makes it worse IMO.
Yes, I was just turning the logic of folks (including PJR himself,
interestingly & hypocritically) back on them... as with Gwyneth's
silly "plagiarism" blather, they dish it out, they should be able to
take it when they fall into their own traps.
Post by George Dance
--
Post by Will Dockery
Tentative list of performers at Hogbottom 5, so far: 1) Wildwood
Bluegrass 2) Rick Edwards3) Blue Harvest4) Jimmy Jam and the Big Fun
5) Will Dockery & The Shadowville All-Stars6) The Buddy Harden Band
7) Henry Conley8) Katt Redd9) Bibb City Ramblers10) Strokin' Dixie
11) Gini Woolfolk12) Joey Allcorn 13) Gravey Robbershttp://www.myspace.com/willdockery
Post by George Dance
Post by Will Dockery
--
"She Sleeps Tight", vocals by Will Dockery & Sandy Madaris, guitars by
Brian Mallard. Paintings by George http://youtu.be/9uGY157cpiU
Post by George Dance
--
Post by Will Dockery
"Truck Stop Woman" by Dockery & Conley http://youtu.be/kvtQEf7bnfs
George Dance
2010-02-02 18:25:00 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Will Dockery
Post by George Dance
Post by Will Dockery
Post by George Dance
Post by Will Dockery
Post by George Dance
Post by Will Dockery
Post by Will Dockery
I might be inclined to give
real poets the artistic license to delve into subjects with gray area
content. However just because the work of some real poets bear
similarity does not mean their intent was similar. And just because
these are real poets does not mean I have to like or agree with their
work.
Of course not... who's asking you to?
You've titled your post "Shock Poetry Discussion"
So, let's discuss Shock Poetry....
You first, and Howl doesn't count
First, why does Howl not count? It was fairly shocking when it was
new.
It was very shocking when new.  Kinda like a gay Henry Miller sorta
thang.
To answer your question: Howl, as Shock Poetry, is obvious and
overdone.  What other Shock Poetry, from the distant past or from The
Now, can we compare PedoChuck's *A Perfect Angel * to?
For starters, definitely some of Bukowski and even later Allen
Ginsberg.
Did you know that Ginsberg actually was a member of NAMBLA before his
death? Shameful (and shocking) but true.
I don't know what happened to Freddy: he seemed so interested in
discussing the topic. I guess we'll have to go on without him, and
hope he pops back in.
I've had bits of good conversation with Fred over the years, but he
does pop out pretty fast... generally he just seems to come around
from time-to-time to follow Chuck...
Well, if he does want to stick around AAPC to talk about poetry, he's
welcome to IMO: the more the merrier.. Maybe he'll even try to write
some, but that's not obligatory for posting here.
In the meantime, I suppose I should kick the discussion off by giving
my first thoughts on the two poems.
Post by Will Dockery
Post by George Dance
My own preference is to compare the two poems that have already been
posted onto the thread. I'm not sure what the questions are -- I
suppose things like, "Which is the better poem?", "Which is more
shocking?", etc. -- so I'll limit myself for now to just putting up
the poems again stripped of all the carets. I'll also identify them as
A and B to make it easier to refer to them later. (I think that'll be
easier to remember: A for Angel, B for the other one.)
A. A Perfect Angel
i knew it was wrong
i'm not really a good babysitter
i felt myself getting hard
as she sat in my lap
and then she kissed me
i told her no
she kept kissing me
soon the passion
was too much
i grabbed her
and slammed my swollen cock
into her virgin pussy
and exploded as she screamed
hours of screams
then...
her parents came home
asked if she did her homework
and if she behaved
she looked at me
and wet her lips with her tongue
i said yes
she was a perfect angel
- Chuck Lysaght
My first thoughts when I read this: this is about two teens having
sex. The simple diction, the lack of imagery or other poetic devices,
and the run-on conversational style (all one sentence linked with
recurring 'and's) all make the speaker sound very young. The opening
line, "I knew it was wrong" is very good in that respect. He really
didn't know it was wrong, of course; thinking something is wrong
implies not doing it. What he knows is that it's "wrong": ie, that
other people have told him that it's wrong and he's internalized it
(the way someone living with his parents would be internalizing them).
That, and the info in the next line that he's a babysitter were what
first made me think it was by a teen.
As for the "shock," there isn't much of one; the two kids have sex,
and get away with it. There's nothing very remarkable about any of it.
The only intended shock value I can see in it comes from using all
those 'dirty' words, which would offend some people I suppose, but
really would only 'shock' someone who's never seen them in print
before (which again makes me think teenager). The fact they got away
with it may offend some sensibilities, too, but certainly isn't
someone who's confused morality with the way his parents want him to
behave.
So; two teens having sex. Good clean fun. But nothing very interesting
about it; nothing that merits a reread. On the internal evidence, I'd
either a young man about as much experience in poetry writing as sex
(and the same immature idea that because both are so wonderful to him,
others will be equally interested) -- or a very competent writer who's
managed to capture that voice perfectly here.
Post by Will Dockery
Post by George Dance
B. Graffito
fuck you
on my wall
with a pen
fuck you
on your heart
with a knife
- Peter J. Ross
B is much better written. Note the use of metaphor to say what
happened (vs. the literal description in A), and the holding back of
the killing, as a sort of punchline, until the end. All that makes the
speaker sound like an adult.So it's an adult and he's stabbing
someone. Who? If one interprets S1 metaphorically, then there's not
much information: the victim is just someone who's told the speaker to
f.o., who's rejected him in some way, and got killed for it.
However, if one interprets S1 literally -- and that's important even
if it's a metaphor, just because the writer chose that particular
vehicle for his metaphor -- we learn something about the auditor (the
"you"): that he or she is old enough to write, but still young enough
to scribble on walls. Say, seven years old.
So I'd read B as a story about an adult killing a seven-year-old: Much
more shocking than the teen-sex of A, and also more skillfully told.
A case of "Write what you know", perhaps? Creepy...
Yuck, I hope not. I'd rather think it's just thought; that the poet
just likes to think about it. So long as it's just thought, then I'd
say there's nothing morally wrong with it -- as long as it doesn't
translate into action, then it doesn't affect anyone but the thinker.
And if the only physical action it translates into is a written poem,
it doesn't really affect anyone: a person who doesn't like being
shocked by it can just not read it or other poems by that author.
But, creepy? Yes, I'd agree with that; even if it is just something
the writer likes to think about. The idea of killing a child for
writing dirty words on the wall does creep me out; in fact, the idea
of killing a child for any reason creeps me out. Using a knife, with
all the attendant blood and gore, just makes it worse IMO.
Yes, I was just turning the logic of folks (including PJR himself,
interestingly & hypocritically) back on them... as with Gwyneth's
silly "plagiarism" blather, they dish it out, they should be able to
take it when they fall into their own traps.
The poems, Will. I'd really like to discuss the poems here: they've
been talked about so much, but actually discussed so seldom.

For instance: Do you read them the same way: A as teen sex, and B as
adult-killing child? Or do you see another take: maybe A as pedophilia
(which would be more shocking), and B as adult-killing-adult (which is
arguably less)?
Post by Will Dockery
Post by George Dance
--
Post by Will Dockery
Tentative list of performers at Hogbottom 5, so far: 1) Wildwood
Bluegrass 2) Rick Edwards3) Blue Harvest4) Jimmy Jam and the Big Fun
5) Will Dockery & The Shadowville All-Stars6) The Buddy Harden Band
7) Henry Conley8) Katt Redd9) Bibb City Ramblers10) Strokin' Dixie
11) Gini Woolfolk12) Joey Allcorn 13) Gravey Robbershttp://www.myspace.com/willdockery
Post by George Dance
Post by Will Dockery
--
"She Sleeps Tight", vocals by Will Dockery & Sandy Madaris, guitars by
Brian Mallard. Paintings by George http://youtu.be/9uGY157cpiU
Post by George Dance
--
Post by Will Dockery
"Truck Stop Woman" by Dockery & Conley http://youtu.be/kvtQEf7bnfs
Peter Ceresole
2010-02-02 19:57:47 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by George Dance
For instance: Do you read them the same way: A as teen sex, and B as
adult-killing child? Or do you see another take: maybe A as pedophilia
(which would be more shocking), and B as adult-killing-adult (which is
arguably less)?
Well the second take is certainly the way they *read*. And given that
they're poems, that's the only thing that counts.

A certainly comes across as paedophilia- a very immature take on it, but
certainly written by an adult.

As for B, does it *really* involve actual writing on a wall, and
actually knifing somebody, or are these images of intent? A description
of the dynamics of a relationship between disfunctional adults?

As for whether it matters or not; it's very unlikely that these rather
bad poems would actually cause anybody to act in such a way. After all,
they are fairly clearly designed to shock, and that's not usually a very
effective way of getting a result. But if they were better poems,
actually used language, imagery and thought to get into the mainstream,
make people think a bit, they might contribute to changing attitudes in
a nasty way, making paedophilia or violence more acceptable than they
are.

Throughout the '30s poets were absolutely tying themselves in knots to
work out what use poetry might be in the real world. There's a superb
account of this in "The Auden Generation" by Samuel Hynes. In general
(and these were good, intelligent and powerful writers whose work
survived the test of fame and time) they never felt that they achieved
much that was concrete.
--
Peter
Karla
2010-02-02 22:25:35 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
In article <1jdaxff.4i1pfk146vcuyN%***@cara.demon.co.uk>, Peter Ceresole
says...
Post by Peter Ceresole
Post by George Dance
For instance: Do you read them the same way: A as teen sex, and B as
adult-killing child? Or do you see another take: maybe A as pedophilia
(which would be more shocking), and B as adult-killing-adult (which is
arguably less)?
Well the second take is certainly the way they *read*. And given that
they're poems, that's the only thing that counts.
A certainly comes across as paedophilia- a very immature take on it, but
certainly written by an adult.
As for B, does it *really* involve actual writing on a wall, and
actually knifing somebody, or are these images of intent? A description
of the dynamics of a relationship between disfunctional adults?
As for whether it matters or not; it's very unlikely that these rather
bad poems would actually cause anybody to act in such a way. After all,
they are fairly clearly designed to shock, and that's not usually a very
effective way of getting a result. But if they were better poems,
actually used language, imagery and thought to get into the mainstream,
make people think a bit, they might contribute to changing attitudes in
a nasty way, making paedophilia or violence more acceptable than they
are.
Throughout the '30s poets were absolutely tying themselves in knots to
work out what use poetry might be in the real world. There's a superb
account of this in "The Auden Generation" by Samuel Hynes. In general
(and these were good, intelligent and powerful writers whose work
survived the test of fame and time) they never felt that they achieved
much that was concrete.
The Auden book you referenced looks interesting. Thanks!

Karla
Will Dockery
2010-02-02 23:47:25 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by George Dance
For instance: Do you read them the same way: A as teen sex, and B as
Post by George Dance
adult-killing child? Or do you see another take: maybe A as pedophilia
(which would be more shocking), and B as adult-killing-adult (which is
arguably less)?
Well the second take is certainly the way they *read*. And given that
they're poems, that's the only thing that counts.
A certainly comes across as paedophilia- a very immature take on it, but
certainly written by an adult.
As for B, does it *really* involve actual writing on a wall, and
actually knifing somebody, or are these images of intent? A description
of the dynamics of a relationship between disfunctional adults?
As for whether it matters or not; it's very unlikely that these rather
bad poems would actually cause anybody to act in such a way. After all,
they are fairly clearly designed to shock, and that's not usually a very
effective way of getting a result. But if they were better poems,
actually used language, imagery and thought to get into the mainstream,
make people think a bit, they might contribute to changing attitudes in
a nasty way, making paedophilia or violence more acceptable than they
are.
Throughout the '30s poets were absolutely tying themselves in knots to
work out what use poetry might be in the real world. There's a superb
account of this in "The Auden Generation" by Samuel Hynes. In general
(and these were good, intelligent and powerful writers whose work
survived the test of fame and time) they never felt that they achieved
much that was concrete.
--
Peter
Hello, Peter... it has been years since I've seen you, glad to see
you're still around, and apparently doing well!

--
"Black Crow's Brother" by Will Dockery & Gini Woolfolk:

George Dance
2010-02-03 17:08:36 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Peter Ceresole
Post by George Dance
For instance: Do you read them the same way: A as teen sex, and B as
adult-killing child? Or do you see another take: maybe A as pedophilia
(which would be more shocking), and B as adult-killing-adult (which is
arguably less)?
Well the second take is certainly the way they *read*. And given that
they're poems, that's the only thing that counts.
Thanks for joining the discussion. I don't agree with either
interpretation, but I've said enough about that already. So I'll just
look at yours.
Post by Peter Ceresole
A certainly comes across as paedophilia- a very immature take on it, but
certainly written by an adult.
I've been told it was; though I would not have guessed that from the
poem itself. But I don't think that matters anyway; whether it reads
as pedophilia depends on what one reads as the age of the characters,
not that of the author. I mean, Portnoy's Complaint was written by an
adult, but there's no pedophilia in the sex scenes with the young
girls there (Portnoy and his buds were clearly the same age).
Post by Peter Ceresole
As for B, does it *really* involve actual writing on a wall, and
actually knifing somebody, or are these images of intent? A description
of the dynamics of a relationship between disfunctional adults?
I read the first (not the second) as symbol or metaphor -- as I said
there, it's the choice of metaphor -- writing on the wall with a pen
-- that says 'child' to me.
Post by Peter Ceresole
As for whether it matters or not; it's very unlikely that these rather
bad poems would actually cause anybody to act in such a way. After all,
they are fairly clearly designed to shock, and that's not usually a very
effective way of getting a result. But if they were better poems,
actually used language, imagery and thought to get into the mainstream,
make people think a bit, they might contribute to changing attitudes in
a nasty way, making paedophilia or violence more acceptable than they
are.
I don't see the danger there. No matter how skillfully a poem were
written, I don't think it would change any parent's attitude toward
pedophilia, or any adult's attitude toward violence.
Post by Peter Ceresole
Throughout the '30s poets were absolutely tying themselves in knots to
work out what use poetry might be in the real world. There's a superb
account of this in "The Auden Generation" by Samuel Hynes. In general
(and these were good, intelligent and powerful writers whose work
survived the test of fame and time) they never felt that they achieved
much that was concrete.
--
Peter
That does sound like an interesting book. Thank you for the lead, and
for your other input into the discussion.
Peter Ceresole
2010-02-05 15:31:23 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by George Dance
I don't see the danger there. No matter how skillfully a poem were
written, I don't think it would change any parent's attitude toward
pedophilia, or any adult's attitude toward violence.
I think such an assessment can only be made in a much broader context.
Societies operate on consensus, however woolly it may be. And it's (I
think, without being a social historian) not often that a single work or
incident changes that consensus. Of course that's not an absolute
statement. Laws are occasionally passed as the result of some
particularly horrifying event, but this is usually in a case (as in
pedophilia) where a consensus already exists, so that the law encounters
little strong opposition. And of course it can and usually does have
unintended consequences, which pushes things back...

Consensus may change, though, as a result of many small touches, or
perhaps from a willingness to actually discuss something that was
previously considered to be beneath discussion. And in that case, poems
(although not usually, I think, *a* single poem) can make a difference.
I think probably that 'Howl' did, although the dumb prosecutions
probably did more than the poem itself. But that's all part of the show;
not all consequences are intended, but they are real enough. Think of
the legalisation of same-sex partnerships; what chance of seeing a
future that held 'gay marriages' from the perspective of the 1940s and
50s? Okay, it took half a century, and there's always the California
Problem.

But *as poems*, our A and B aren't earth movers. More Segways than CJBs.

My feeling that A is an adult fantasy of pedophilia comes more from the
style, the use of words, rather than anything else. I agree that it's
not a sound idea to equate the author and the work. But the
circumstances ('babysitting', her Lolita knowingness and the parents'
acceptance of her innocence at the end) make the girl out to to be
young, maybe a child. As for B, I never felt a compelling need to take
the writing on the wall as a literal description of a real act, nor the
knifing as anything beyond a vengeful fantasy. Both are pretty easily
interpretable as parables.

But hell, what should my literary opinion be worth? With a shave thrown
in... Ten cents, isn't it?
--
Peter
Peter Ceresole
2010-02-05 15:43:06 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Peter Ceresole
But *as poems*, our A and B aren't earth movers. More Segways than CJBs.
Aaaaagh!

Cultural dissonance and dyslexia strike again... JCB... Big Yellow
Mothers.

<http://www.jcb.com/products/machinerange.aspx>
--
Peter
=z=
2010-02-05 17:10:03 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Peter Ceresole
Post by Peter Ceresole
But *as poems*, our A and B aren't earth movers. More Segways than CJBs.
Aaaaagh!
Cultural dissonance and dyslexia strike again... JCB... Big Yellow
Mothers.
<http://www.jcb.com/products/machinerange.aspx>
--
Peter
yeah, you are so wordy...peter casseroles...add some muenster to that
bullshit...
Peter Ceresole
2010-02-05 17:33:33 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by =z=
yeah, you are so wordy...peter casseroles...
Yup. But at least they're intelligent words.

Might you have something to contribute to the discussion?

Doesn't look like it.
--
Peter
=z=
2010-02-05 19:07:09 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Peter Ceresole
Post by =z=
yeah, you are so wordy...peter casseroles...
Yup. But at least they're intelligent words.
Might you have something to contribute to the discussion?
Doesn't look like it.
--
Peter
hey peter peter pumkin' eater...your mamma said it's time for tea...so
get your little british cock outta your hand and go have some spit...
=z=
2010-02-05 19:12:17 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by =z=
Post by Peter Ceresole
Post by =z=
yeah, you are so wordy...peter casseroles...
Yup. But at least they're intelligent words.
Might you have something to contribute to the discussion?
Doesn't look like it.
--
Peter
hey peter peter pumkin' eater...your mamma said it's time for tea...so
get your little british cock outta your hand and go have some spit...
bitch...
Karla
2010-02-05 23:07:00 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
In article <1jdg461.1a8jx6atzicc8N%***@cara.demon.co.uk>, Peter Ceresole
says...
Post by Peter Ceresole
Post by George Dance
I don't see the danger there. No matter how skillfully a poem were
written, I don't think it would change any parent's attitude toward
pedophilia, or any adult's attitude toward violence.
I think such an assessment can only be made in a much broader context.
Societies operate on consensus, however woolly it may be. And it's (I
think, without being a social historian) not often that a single work or
incident changes that consensus. Of course that's not an absolute
statement. Laws are occasionally passed as the result of some
particularly horrifying event, but this is usually in a case (as in
pedophilia) where a consensus already exists, so that the law encounters
little strong opposition. And of course it can and usually does have
unintended consequences, which pushes things back...
Consensus may change, though, as a result of many small touches, or
perhaps from a willingness to actually discuss something that was
previously considered to be beneath discussion. And in that case, poems
(although not usually, I think, *a* single poem) can make a difference.
I think probably that 'Howl' did, although the dumb prosecutions
probably did more than the poem itself. But that's all part of the show;
not all consequences are intended, but they are real enough. Think of
the legalisation of same-sex partnerships; what chance of seeing a
future that held 'gay marriages' from the perspective of the 1940s and
50s? Okay, it took half a century, and there's always the California
Problem.
But *as poems*, our A and B aren't earth movers. More Segways than CJBs.
My feeling that A is an adult fantasy of pedophilia comes more from the
style, the use of words, rather than anything else. I agree that it's
not a sound idea to equate the author and the work. But the
circumstances ('babysitting', her Lolita knowingness and the parents'
acceptance of her innocence at the end) make the girl out to to be
young, maybe a child. As for B, I never felt a compelling need to take
the writing on the wall as a literal description of a real act, nor the
knifing as anything beyond a vengeful fantasy. Both are pretty easily
interpretable as parables.
But hell, what should my literary opinion be worth? With a shave thrown
in... Ten cents, isn't it?
I am guessing that I'm reading you because someone threw in the beat group? I'm
reading alt.arts.poetry.comments at the moment.

You're a good read. Please stop by sometime even when alt....beat isn't part of
the mix.

Karla
Peter Ceresole
2010-02-06 07:57:33 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Karla
I am guessing that I'm reading you because someone threw in the beat
group? I'm reading alt.arts.poetry.comments at the moment.
Yup. I was one of those people who collided with the Evergreen Review
number on 'The San Francisco Scene' when I was ever so young, then got
run over by 'On the Road' and have been Beat roadkill ever since. Ah,
the romance... In my mum's generation, there were people who never
recovered from reading 'Le Grand Meaulnes'. Well, OTR was my version.
--
Peter
Will Dockery
2010-02-06 15:03:15 UTC
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Post by Karla
I am guessing that I'm reading you because someone threw in the beat
Post by Karla
group? I'm reading alt.arts.poetry.comments at the moment.
Yup. I was one of those people who collided with the Evergreen Review
number on 'The San Francisco Scene' when I was ever so young, then got
run over by 'On the Road' and have been Beat roadkill ever since. Ah,
the romance... In my mum's generation, there were people who never
recovered from reading 'Le Grand Meaulnes'. Well, OTR was my version.
--
Peter
So, how's alt.books.beatgeneration going, Peter?

I haven't been there in maybe a year, at least, it seems, except to
send something over, like this thread, that might be of interest to
you all.

--
"Red Lipped Stranger & other stories" by Will Dockery:
http://www.myspace.com/willdockery
Peter Ceresole
2010-02-06 16:18:43 UTC
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Post by Will Dockery
So, how's alt.books.beatgeneration going, Peter?
Quiet. But I like that...
--
Peter
Will Dockery
2010-02-06 16:30:57 UTC
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Post by Peter Ceresole
Post by Will Dockery
So, how's alt.books.beatgeneration going, Peter?
Quiet. But I like that...
--
Peter
I hope to stop by soon and see if anything interesting is happening...
isn't there a Gregory Corso biography that's new, relatively new, or
coming soon?

--
Corning Town by Will Dockery & Brian Mallard:

Peter Ceresole
2010-02-06 19:51:08 UTC
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Post by Will Dockery
Post by Peter Ceresole
Post by Will Dockery
So, how's alt.books.beatgeneration going, Peter?
Quiet. But I like that...
--
Peter
I hope to stop by soon and see if anything interesting is happening...
isn't there a Gregory Corso biography that's new, relatively new, or
coming soon?
I'm not sure. But the real pleasure of alt.books.beatgeneration is that
Dave Moore pops in from time to time. And what he doesn't know isn't
knowledge...
--
Peter
Dave Moore
2010-02-06 20:35:11 UTC
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Post by Peter Ceresole
Post by Will Dockery
Post by Peter Ceresole
Post by Will Dockery
So, how's alt.books.beatgeneration going, Peter?
Quiet. But I like that...
--
Peter
I hope to stop by soon and see if anything interesting is happening...
isn't there a Gregory Corso biography that's new, relatively new, or
coming soon?
I'm not sure. But the real pleasure of alt.books.beatgeneration is that
Dave Moore pops in from time to time. And what he doesn't know isn't
knowledge...
--
Peter
Peter, you are too kind! I can't possibly live up to that acclamation.

Will, I don't know of a Corso biography, but there is a new biopic movie of
the man -- "Corso: The Last Beat."

More info about it here:

<http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/hr/film-reviews/corso-the-last-beat-film-review-1003986985.story>


Dave
Dan Fox
2010-02-09 13:54:13 UTC
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Post by Dave Moore
Will, I don't know of a Corso biography, but there is a new biopic movie
of the man -- "Corso: The Last Beat."
<http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/hr/film-reviews/corso-the-last-beat-fil
m-review-1003986985.story>
Dave - there was an academic biography of Corso published a few years ago -
I tried to read it; it was rubbish.

Thanks for the tip on the Corso movie. Any word on it going to DVD?

Dan
Dave Moore
2010-02-09 17:10:45 UTC
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Post by Dan Fox
Dave - there was an academic biography of
Corso published a few years ago -
I tried to read it; it was rubbish.
I knew there have been some critical studies of Corso's work published. Who
wrote the biography?
Post by Dan Fox
Thanks for the tip on the Corso movie.
Any word on it going to DVD?
Not that I'm aware of, yet.

Dave
Dan Fox
2010-02-10 20:01:33 UTC
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Post by Dave Moore
Post by Dan Fox
Dave - there was an academic biography of
Corso published a few years ago -
I tried to read it; it was rubbish.
I knew there have been some critical studies of Corso's work published.
Who wrote the biography?
Post by Dan Fox
Thanks for the tip on the Corso movie.
Any word on it going to DVD?
Not that I'm aware of, yet.
You're right - it's a critical study, not a bio - its:
A Clown in a Grave: The Complexities and Tensions in the Works of Gregory
Corso by Michael Skau (Hardcover - Sept. 10, 1999)

Dan
Dave Moore
2010-02-10 23:41:04 UTC
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Post by Dan Fox
Post by Dave Moore
I knew there have been some critical studies of
Corso's work published.
Who wrote the biography?
A Clown in a Grave: The Complexities and
Tensions in the Works of Gregory Corso
by Michael Skau (Hardcover - Sept. 10, 1999)
Dan
Yes, that's one I was thinking of. The other is "Exiled Angel: A Study of
the Work of Gregory Corso" by Gregory Stephenson (1989). There's also a
chapter about Corso in "Whitman's Wild Children" by Neeli Cherkovski (1988).

More biographical is "An Accidental Autobiography: The Selected Letters of
Gregory Corso" edited by Bill Morgan, and with an introduction by Patti
Smith (2003).

Dave

Will Dockery
2010-02-07 18:49:51 UTC
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Post by Peter Ceresole
Post by Will Dockery
Post by Will Dockery
So, how's alt.books.beatgeneration going, Peter?
Quiet. But I like that...
--
Peter
I hope to stop by soon and see if anything interesting is happening...
isn't there a Gregory Corso biography that's new, relatively new, or
coming soon?
I'm not sure. But the real pleasure of alt.books.beatgeneration is that
Dave Moore pops in from time to time. And what he doesn't know isn't
knowledge...
--
Peter
Yes, I remember Dave Moore, good to know he still comes around. Guess
I'll go have a look...

--
Dream Tears by Will Dockery & The Shadowville All-Stars:

The Goober Ducks Quack Quack Quack
2010-02-02 18:19:35 UTC
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On Tue, 2 Feb 2010 10:00:44 -0800 (PST), Will Quack Dockery Quack
<***@gmail.com>quacked:

Quack
Post by Will Dockery
Post by George Dance
i knew it was wrong
i'm not really a good babysitter
i felt myself getting hard
as she sat in my lap
and then she kissed me
i told her no
she kept kissing me
soon the passion
was too much
i grabbed her
and slammed my swollen cock
into her virgin pussy
and exploded as she screamed
hours of screams
then...
her parents came home
asked if she did her homework
and if she behaved
she looked at me
and wet her lips with her tongue
i said yes
she was a perfect angel
- Chuck Lysaght
A case of "Write what you know"
Creepy...
Quack
George Dance
2010-02-01 21:28:17 UTC
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Post by Fred Hall
On Mon, 1 Feb 2010 12:36:39 -0800 (PST), Will Dockery
Post by Will Dockery
You've titled your post "Shock Poetry Discussion"
So, let's discuss Shock Poetry....
You first, and Howl doesn't count
First, why does Howl not count? It was fairly shocking when it was
new.
It was very shocking when new.  Kinda like a gay Henry Miller sorta
thang.
To answer your question: Howl, as Shock Poetry, is obvious and
overdone.  What other Shock Poetry, from the distant past or from The
Now, can we compare PedoChuck's *A Perfect Angel * to?
How about the one Will just posted: ~graffito~?
Post by Fred Hall
graffito
--------
fuck you
on my wall
with a pen
fuck you
on your heart
with a knife
--
PJR :-)
If you really do want to seriously discuss the two poems, I'll even
unsock for the discussion.
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